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how to fix this?

14K views 143 replies 21 participants last post by  coffeemama 
#1 ·
Sorry in advance for the novel, lol, but I've been thinking about this a lot the past few days.......

Okay so, I have an OTTB. He is 11 years old, and was on the track as recently as April of 2008. Thats a long time to race for any horse. When I bought him (from an interim owner) she had never been on his back. He basically had no training on how to be a riding horse, so it was going to be completely up to me. I read up a LOT before I finally decided to buy him, and everything that I'd read said that they were relatively easy to re-train, and very willing. So I bought him, and the re-training began. We worked on some minor ground issues, and I basically taught him everything he knows. Voice cues, leg cues, neck reining, backing up, how to respond to a hackamore, etc...basically everything I would need to ride him. Well, its been six months, and until the beginning of December, we were doing FABULOUS. We were walking and trotting and I was almost ready to get him to canter....keep in mind, at a trot, after the first couple of times keeping him on a tight rein, I could let my reins out and he wouldn't speed up. We had worked out his issue of being gate sour, and he was actually getting better about being saddled up (when I first bought him, he was very girthy)

Until the one day I decided to try something new. I know that he does not do well on a single tie. He is very fidgety, likes to get as close to other horses as possible, unties the knots in his lead rope and is generally just a silly horse. Well, on this day I decided to just try him out, since someone else was using the cross ties, and I didn't want to wait twenty minutes to tack up. Big mistake. In all of his fidgeting, in between tightening his girth (I do it twice while he's tied and once before I mount up) his saddle slipped back, and because the girth stayed in place I didn't notice. When I went to mount up, he was fine, and after a few minutes of walking around the ring I asked for a trot. He bucked, and then took off into a very nice and smooth canter. I managed to get him under control, dismounted, fixed his saddle, and got back on. I was nervous, he was nervous, so we just did some more walking and I let him slip into a trot for a few strides before walking him again and getting off. I realize that blow up is my fault.

Then we got a sudden onset of winter rain, so the arena was a complete mud pit and I didn't ride for almost two weeks. I went out and we lunged just to keep him working, which he likes, but I did not saddle up. A few days ago, it was dry enough that I could finally ride in the arena again, so I saddled him up. There was a breeze blowing and a cool front was due in over the weekend, but we've ridden in similar weather just fine. I managed to get one decent trot transition out of him before he blew up, took off into a fast canter/gallop, and over his shoulder and onto the ground I went.

There are a lot of problems in this. One being that everything I read was based on re-training a four or five year old with not very many starts to their racing career. Ice has 95 starts, 42 of those being ones that he either placed or won....so he knows how to run, and that's essentially all he knows how to do. Two, he is naturally a very stubborn/dominant horse. The problem is also not going from a walk to a trot....its coming back down to a walk from trotting. The problem did not start until after he bucked/took off on me.

I have a feeling that I could stick his fits (that's essentially what they are) if I knew that they were coming. The dilemma with that is that expecting something to happen might cause it to happen, versus him just being a brat. At the same time, I don't want to get cocky, try and fix it, and then end up hurting myself. Also, I have no idea how to correct that behavior. One rein stops/circling him only keep him from moving his feet, they don't stop his brain from telling him to do so. So does anyone have any tips? I plan on going out to the barn and talking with our western trainer tomorrow about pricing (she's previously spent three or four years breaking babies, and also has experience with problem horses) for a month or two of training, but I do want some opinions on how I can fix this myself.

Soooo, any suggestions? I ride Western, and would consider myself a pretty decent rider. A few people have already told me I should sell him, which just doesn't seem fair (at any rate, I'd have to get him formally trained to even think of selling him for more than a dollar, and if I do that then I might as well keep him). Oh, and if you've gotten this far thanks in advance!
 
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#39 ·
^^^ I would have said the same thing but couldn't justify the waste of my time. Thank you Westonsma
 
#41 ·
Please spend a little time to read through the retraining guide Kim Clark has put together - http://www.leightonfarm.com/RetrainingManualOCT2009.pdf. She gives a very thorough overview of the training and handling racehorses get and some key things to beginning their retraining and some ideas to troubleshoot. It's a handy guide for first timers.

Another thought for you.. a hackmore is likely confusing your horse to an even greater degree. You've successfully removed every aid he's ever been trained to respond to.

Two things to think about with a hackmore also - you have far less lateral (sideways) influence in a hackmore than a snaffle bit. If you EVER need to ride with a consistent tight rein in a hackmore (as you said you do!), your hackmore is doing you no good. It is not designed to be used with a held contact - you will eventually find your horse avoiding contact with it by dropping and/or tucking his nose.

Unless your horse has visible trauma to his mouth, he can 100% be ridden in a snaffle bit. Maybe he can't be ridden in EVERY snaffle, true. He might be more comfortable in a bit with a double jointed mouthpiece (french link, for example) than a single jointed mouthpiece, or in something thinner vs something thicker.

My personal feeling is that your horse is underprepared to understand your cues from the saddle and that he is running through your whoa aids in avoidance of the hackmore.
 
#42 ·
Thank you! I think I've seen this somewhere before, or maybe it was just an excerpt....but at any rate, its definitely something worth printing out (scrolling long documents makes my eyes hurt so bad!)

I was under the assumption that a hackamore works much like a halter....obviously with more pressure on the poll and the shank, but still the same general dynamics. Obviously I've never cantered him in hand in a halter, lol but if he understands that pressure, wouldn't he understand it in the hackamore as well? The number one reason I stopped fighting with him about putting a bit in his mouth is that its ("it", being the opening of his mouth) is really quite small....or at least it looks that way....a side view of him is attached. In addition, he would spend more time playing with it and trying to push it out than listening to me, and I was constantly having to yank his head to get him to pick his head up from long gaping yawns. With the hackamore his mouth stays closed, and it allows us both to focus, I think. When the trainer I'm going to use rides him, if she really thinks he'd perform better with a bit, then we'll talk about our options, but I like the set up he's in now.


.......apologies for the HUGE picture.
 

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#43 ·
So I'm just trying to get this straight. You like the way he responds to cues and you like the way he gives to the bridle and his groundwork is perfect. You don't want to change anything but you want to know how to fix the problems he has. What are those? Every single time anyone has offered advice you have dismissed it. What exactly do you want from us?
 
#45 ·
My magic wand is in the shop and i'm all out of fix it pills.
 
#47 ·
kevins, the way you continue to poke and prod makes me wonder how many bar fights you've started. But I don't think I said anywhere that I like the way he "gives" to the bridle. I do like the way he drops his head to be bridled, but I think any horse-owning person likes that.

For the sake of the conversation though, and since I don't believe honeysuga has had HER chance at me just yet, lets go with everything you said. Lets say you were training an adult horse who had never been ridden, who was coming along nicely and then BAM, blows up quite unexpectedly. You know that you have done all that is necessary to avoid it, so how do you keep it from happening again? You were not doing anything unusual or new in your riding routine, just a nice easy hack around the arena. What steps would you take in the future?

HS, feel free to also add in any other suggestion relative to the OP.
 
#53 ·
kevins, the way you continue to poke and prod makes me wonder how many bar fights you've started. But I don't think I said anywhere that I like the way he "gives" to the bridle. I do like the way he drops his head to be bridled, but I think any horse-owning person likes that.

For the sake of the conversation though, and since I don't believe honeysuga has had HER chance at me just yet, lets go with everything you said. Lets say you were training an adult horse who had never been ridden, who was coming along nicely and then BAM, blows up quite unexpectedly. You know that you have done all that is necessary to avoid it, so how do you keep it from happening again? You were not doing anything unusual or new in your riding routine, just a nice easy hack around the arena. What steps would you take in the future?

HS, feel free to also add in any other suggestion relative to the OP.

Did you read Kevinshorses' signature? It's not the fact that he just up and one day decided to blow up. Something happened. And the best way to find out is to go back to basics and find it. Since you asked what to do, you obviously don't know what that is, so it would be best just to let the trainer handle it, and once that trainer gets him figured out, the trainer can then assist you in how to prevent it from happening again. But whatever you're doing that you know is incorrect, you may want to stop. It may make a bigger problem for your trainer. And if you want to have a part in it, you need to let the trainer decide what he/she is comfortable letting you help with, afterall, you are paying her for a service. The longer it takes her/him to fix the problem, the more you're going to pay, so just let the trainer do her job, and look forward to the outcome.
 
#48 · (Edited)
I was just kidding around, no need to be defensive. No one wants their "chance" at you.

I have no clue what to tell you, though I do not think Kevin was "poking at you", I honestly think he was trying to help but you have dismissed everything that everyone has said because you do not think it is good enough for one reason or another.

To me it sounds like you just need to throw your hands up, admit defeat and call a trainer. There is no shame in it, and I think you will be happier with your outcome. That will be a fresh pair of eyes that can see in person what you cannot, and take the steps to fix it.
 
#50 ·
lol no harm done :D. I say he's poking because I believe he posted that after I sent him a PM basically taking one in the gut and extending an olive branch, and well....there's his answer.

I don't know if you read that saga or not, lol but I am calling a trainer.....most likely on Monday. I actually just have to drive down to the barn and get her alone, since she lives on site, but I work all weekend long. But, as I said in kevins PM, I'm the kind of person who likes to have knowledge for future use, so if I can do something on my own in addition to what the trainer is doing, more power to me!

That link basically broke it down and said that everything about his personality and the way he thinks is normal, lol. Well, not normal....normal for a race horse. I'm actually going to try and get in touch with one of his trainers (he had like 6 his last year of racing) and see what kind of bit they raced him in....I have a distinct feeling it might be the elevator bit that the document talks about.
 
#55 ·
lol no harm done :D. I say he's poking because I believe he posted that after I sent him a PM basically taking one in the gut and extending an olive branch, and well....there's his answer.
Sorry I didn't notice the PM untill I had already posted.
As far as what I would do in your situation I stand by my advice in a previous post.

You should work on bending more. Learn how to do a one rein stop CORRECTLY and get him breaking at the poll. Use light steady pressure and release as soon as he gives even a tiny bit. Start this standing still and work up to going at a walk. When you can get and hold vertical flexion for a few strides then do it at the trot and so on. You have to get him soft in the face and soft through the body. I would bet that you can't yield his hindquarters. This is a must. Your horse also needs to back with lightness and cadence. You also do this with light steady pressure and a leg cue(squeezing).


1. Yield the hindquarters both directions with ease.

2. Ask for and maintain vertical flexion at all gaits.

3. Back with lightness and cadence.
 
#52 ·
Erm...a hackemore and a halter are two separate things regarding how they will 'respond' when they are ridden in; the ONLY pressure you are giving a horse with a flat nylon halter like that, is on the nose...which gives a horse alot to lean against, basically. With a hack you have chain pressure, you have nose pressure and some poll pressure...ALOT of difference!!!

As far as him gaping his mouth open, you could ride with a cavesson; my geuss is this is more of a habit he picked up on the track (common in TB racers), than an issue with too small of a mouth; and like someone else mentioned, try a french link mouthpeice, as these fit smaller mouthed horses way better than a standard single jointed snaffle. Having a cavesson on, will prevent him from opening his mouth, and thus you should be able to keep his focus easier. If he still continues to try to gape, you could try a figure eight style cavesson; which goes above his nose, and below the bit, to keep the mouth shut. Yes, a small mouth could be why he doesn't want a bit in his mouth, but if you find the right style bit, that accomodates his mouth, you CAN ride him with a bit, and being as he needs so much retraining, you should be riding in some sort of snaffle.

If you are having to constantly keep pressure on the hack, he is going to learn (and obviously already is), that he can duck out from underneath the pressure; just wait till he tosses his head once, when you are applying pressure, he'll learn that this is the quickest way to avoid it, and then you'll have a horse who knows how to evade pressure by ducking and flinging his head. Regular hackamores are NOT a training tool, in my opinion, these are for horses who are already trained, and don't NEED more training to be good riding horses. As a trainer, I won't ride a horse in a hackemore (mechanical, that is) until I know he knows how to stop, turn, back, side pass, etc, with leg pressure only, or a slight raising of the reins, and he needs to also already know how to neck rein, because mechanical hacks aren't meant for individual rein pressure really. Yes, by all means, ride him in one when he is passed all his 'duck out' type issues, but get him retrained first, then shift back to it.
 
#54 ·
Thanks....I guess I need to find some sort of bit exchange group or something then, lol. I'll definitely go with my trainers word as the final say so, for all I know she can work some magical powers and work with him in the hackamore, but maybe not. However, he doesn't "duck under" the pressure of the hackamore, at least not that I'm aware of. He may have tried, but its usually only where theres a patch of green grass, and thats solved with a small quick jerk up. When he got away from me, it was the sudden lurching forward of his front end/extension of his neck that caused me to drop the reins, and then I was not able to get them back, which is how he was able to get away from me. If I had been holding them two handed, that probably wouldn't have happened and he would have gotten only a few steps in.

I do think that he does know how to neck rein, or at least has the basic ideas of it. The document that Larissa linked me stressed that in training less really is more, because they're so used to subtle cues to begin with, where as a riding horse has to be sensitized. I haven't direct reined since I had the bit in his mouth, the most I've do is a reminder jig on the rein if he gets lazy.

Merry Christmas to my credit card......
 
#58 ·
I have spent a good hour reading through all of these posts and I would love to help as much as my knowledge will allow. I am fairly new into horses, but I have found a great trainer that I spend a lot of time with and has taught me so much about horses and ridding.
I want to commend you on trying to retrain your OTTB. That was alot to take on, but I know from experience that no amount of research and book will help you in training. My first hors hurt me bad because I took her on thinking I could help her with her issues because I watched RFD and read the books There are also so many "trainers" out there that will tell you things that will get you hurt.
I see that this has gotten heated and I hope that I don't upset you or anyone else, but I want to help you to see other's point of view.
You say your horse has great ground manners, but he refuses to lunge in the round pen and also turns his butt to you (a HUGE sign of disrespect) You say he won't take a bit, so you put a hackamore on him. You say he's hard to turn (I know there's a lot more to this then just that, but I don't want to write a book) but your working on that because he only knows how to go forward.
This is my opinion, be it right or wrong, with your situation:
Your horse has no respect for you. You ask him to do something and if he doesn't do it, you don't make him or have a reason he won't do it. He wouldn't lunge in the roungpen, so you put a lunge line on him, which makes it so much easier for him to not pay attention to you and disrespect you. In my opinion that was a step back. One point for him. I also advise against ground driving. You can really screw up a horse if you do it wrong.
I think it is imperative that you put a snaffle on him, no other bit. In my opinion any "mechanical" items (tie down, martigales, draw reins, etc) just cover the problem. It is better if you spend the time to teach the horse what you are wanting. It takes longer, but it's such a better result.
If you ask your horse to yeild his hind end and he doesn't do it, make him. This horse is walking all over you. Obviously, you do have to make sure he knows what your asking him.
A one rein stop is imperative to teach him. I think this is just what he needs. When he takes off on you, you want him to instantly give to that bit and slow down. Your horse is excatly what a one rein stop is for. Horses can only think about one thing at a time, so you are changing his thinking to slow down. With that said, you need to do the one rien stop a ton of times until it's just second nature and he is giving to that bit (which is the first thing I think you need to teach him) so when you put preasure on that bit when he takes off, he instictually turns and slows down.
I think you need to stop thinking about retraining him and think about training him. Start from the very basics from the beginning and work your way just like he was a baby. Yes, he does have a lot of baggage, but he needs started from the beginning again.
If you want to learn about training him, go there with the trainer while she works him. My trainer let me go everytime I wanted to and he explained everything he did. That's how I learned. If she won't let you there while she's working him, find another trainer. I also feel, like others have said, that you should find a trainer that knows more about retraining, but she may do great. Your the one that knows her and can make that decision.
In my opinion, and I know other's will disagree, you have to be firm with your horse. He has to know his boundaries and if he crosses them he gets an excilation of force. I have a 900lb horse that has crushed my ankle. I don't want to get hurt again, so she will be hurt before I will. This is not a partnership. As much as I love her and as much as she is one of my very best friends, I am boss and it is a dictatorship. She does not cross those boundaries.
I hope you make the right decision, no matter what it is. We are all here to help you and I hope you see it that way.
 
#59 ·
here is a video of him lunging. This was filmed in early December, after a two or three month break from lunging. Near then end he starts to put up his usual tricks....I would have filmed longer, but the camera ran out of memory :( If you want to see what he was like BEFORE the break, I can link that also....but there he is on a lunge line (lunging with the western trainer) and so he's extra naughty. Pictures of saddle fit, and a video probably of the basic ground work will also be in the works this week. Should I get them on the ground, from the saddle, or both?

 
#60 · (Edited)
Here's what I see with the free longe video...

1) All you have him doing is trot...no walking, no cantering, so really, what's the point of it? When you do longe him, you should do lots of direction changes, and gait changes, not just let him choose the speed\gait, and have him mosey around like he is doing.

2) when he changes directions on his own, you don't correct him and send him back in the direction you had him going; basically he is able to choose direction, which has HIM in control at that point.

3) the person controlling him is NOT very persuasive with their body language... which makes him more able to control the situation to how he wants to.

4) He's got his butt angled towards you more than I like to see; indicating he is not interested in respecting your space, or authority; remember his rear is his defence, and he needs to yield it to you. Turning it toward you, when he's moving, and especially when he's stopping and evading your authority, is not a good thing.
 
#61 ·
In my opinion he is playing games with you. It lookes like the whole time he's lunging his body is turned slighly away from you, his butt slightly in. He's watching everythign outside of the round pen. The whole point of lunging is to have his complete attention and respet. When his attention is elsewhere he's disrespecting you.
I think you need a trainer. He needs a trainer.
 
#62 ·
Thanks everyone. This video was originally for critiquing his movement at a trot, to me his back legs look a little stiff, so thats why there's not too many gait changes. I do have a ten second video of him cantering, but that separate and doesn't really show anything, so I didn't include it. This was also the second or so day of rain where I couldn't ride, so I was just giving him some light work. However, from that day of filming, he only tried to do a turn when I didn't want him to one time, technically twice, the first time was at 1:12 where he tried to turn and I got after him, and the second was at 1:32 when he did the full turn around, again, when I got after him. I know he still turns his butt in on occasion, but I think he did turn in to me more often than out (I haven't actually counted, lol) also remember we continued even after the video stopped.

I know its hard to see from the video but his ears are on me, but you are right, now that I look at it he is kind of angled outwards. If I get super aggressive with my body language, or even hold the whip up at his shoulder, he'll start throwing his head over the rail to "escape"....If I walk in towards him he keeps moving, but only until the next seam in the round pen, where he'll try it again, which then means I'm essentially chasing him with the whip, which doesn't do anything either. If I stand in the middle and let him move around me without any pressure on him, all I have to do is step into his path and he turns, and for him to stop I drop the whip and hold my arms out and say "whoa".

But, he doesn't just do this with me, he does this with EVERYONE. If you guys want to see him working with someone else, I can do that too :)
 
#63 ·
How great is it that you can work a horse in short sleeves in december!

I recieved the book True Horsemanship Through Feel by Bill Dorrance and Leslie Desmond. As I read the book I thought about the OP and her situation. I would recomend the book to everybody but the OP could really use it. Bill talks about getting a feel for the horse and getting the horse to feel of you. I will probably start another thread soon about this but the gist is that I see a human with no feel for her horse and vice versa. Please look into this book. You can probably get it from your local library.
 
#64 ·
I sooooo want that book, but I have NO extra funds since taking the job I did this fall. It's really hard getting used to less than 800$ (with TWO salaries), every two weeks...I was getting anywhere from 6-800 every week...but hubby didn't have a job, and I'm not sure how mine would have fared this winter, with the economy.

I can work with my horses in a sweatshirt very comfortably this winter...I guess that's the best trade off! :D (I moved from MN, to AZ)
 
#65 ·
Try your library. If they don't have it they may be able to get it for you.
 
#67 ·
haha...I live, literally in the middle of nowhere, and the nearest 'town' has a library with mostly all older than 20 year old horse books...Lol! I spose I could keep an eye out on e-bay, or amazon...
 
#66 ·
Haha kevins, ironically, I like it sooooo much better when I have to wear a jacket. Anything hotter than 60 in the winter just makes me sad. Living in Florida all of my life just annoys me some days, but the economy is in no condition for me to leave a steady job and move. I'll definitely look for that book somewhere (I only wish they sold it at Walmart).
 
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