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post #11 of 144 Old 12-21-2009, 08:25 PM Thread Starter
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the 500 dollars is for xrays for arthritis....they, if anything, would cause him to move slower, not suddenly decide to start running. We've checked his saddle fit before, its fine for him....again, that would cause him to explode moving into the trot, not going back down to a walk. I'm also going to call the chiro out, as I said in the OP, as soon as the holiday is over to see if she can diagnose anything. However, I doubt that's the problem. But to bp, I don't think his sanity is the problem, its his general attitude of a donkey.

Kevins, if he really had my number, I wouldn't be talking about getting back on him, I'd be talking about the quickest way to sell him. If people hadn't suggested I go to the ER, I would have taken him to the round pen and gotten back on him. He knows I'm just as stubborn as he is, and this is actually the first time I have come off of him in all of our fighting. I would like to know what excuses I'm making--I'm only going off of my experience with him. I admitted in the OP that I had planned on getting lessons with him, and I also admitted that I planned on talking to the resident Western trainer about rates, both of which I would think are completely responsible things to do. However, I don't think he needs anything specific, he just needs more real saddle time, and that was my point in the post--helpful suggestions, not criticisms.
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post #12 of 144 Old 12-21-2009, 08:52 PM
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It sounds like you've covered a lot of bases, but I think there are still alot of holes in your basic training here. You are giving him an awful lot of excuses that would suit a human for disrepectful behavior. I would probably fall back to groundwork, like someone else mentioned. If someone brought me this horse for training, I definately wouldn't jump on his back till I found out what was making him tick and eventually explode. There are many little things jumping out here, from his behavior in the round pen to how he reacts to being tied up and his inability to adapt. Sure, physical issues could contribute to his intensified defensive behaviors. I don't think its a matter of "teaching him a lesson". Horses tell you exactly whats wrong before you get on their back. You are interpreting everything that he's doing in your language. It says something completely different if you look at it in his.
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post #13 of 144 Old 12-21-2009, 10:37 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by FlitterBug View Post
It sounds like you've covered a lot of bases, but I think there are still alot of holes in your basic training here. You are giving him an awful lot of excuses that would suit a human for disrepectful behavior. I would probably fall back to groundwork, like someone else mentioned. If someone brought me this horse for training, I definately wouldn't jump on his back till I found out what was making him tick and eventually explode. There are many little things jumping out here, from his behavior in the round pen to how he reacts to being tied up and his inability to adapt. Sure, physical issues could contribute to his intensified defensive behaviors. I don't think its a matter of "teaching him a lesson". Horses tell you exactly whats wrong before you get on their back. You are interpreting everything that he's doing in your language. It says something completely different if you look at it in his.

Just to cover my bases, lol he does cross tie perfectly. He just doesn't single tie very well, as he is very fidgety, and smart enough to let himself loose, lol. I'd imagine that he was never single tied on the track, he was always either held or cross tied.

I totally agree--he's basically telling me that he's never done this (i.e. regular riding with a person sitting on his back) before, and he doesn't like it anymore. I know that he knows how to walk, trot, canter, and gallop and transition to those gaits in a relatively smooth fashion, he knows how to lead, yield his hindquarters, and forequarters, back, turn left and right, etc. etc.....the problem is not the groundwork, as he does these things perfectly when asked...its getting him to re-associate these things with his new life, not his old one on the track. Thats his problem and essentially why he explodes, because that's exactly what he was trained to do, so he thinks its right. Like I said in the OP, I need to change his thinking, not just change his actions.

Ironically, its his actions that are right, but his motivation is wrong. For the last six months, instead of wiping his slate clean, which is what I need to do, I've been trying to build his new skills on top of the old ones....basically like putting an American plug into a European socket. You can jam it in there and it might work, but in this case you're probably just going to get electrocuted.

Last edited by justsambam08; 12-21-2009 at 10:42 PM.
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post #14 of 144 Old 12-22-2009, 12:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by justsambam08 View Post
Kevins, if he really had my number, I wouldn't be talking about getting back on him, I'd be talking about the quickest way to sell him. If people hadn't suggested I go to the ER, I would have taken him to the round pen and gotten back on him. He knows I'm just as stubborn as he is, and this is actually the first time I have come off of him in all of our fighting. I would like to know what excuses I'm making.
First I don't have a dog in this fight so I am not trying to start a fight or run you down. It's not a matter of how stubborn you are, it's a matter of how well you present what you want your horse to do. I think it's fair to say that you are not doing that very well from your horses point of view.

As far as the excuses you are making, you have suggested that it may be arthritis. You have tried saddle fit as an excuse and you mentioned in your last post that you will be having the chiro out ASAP. Those are the excuses that I was refering to. The problem, in my opinion, is a training issue and that is where I would spend my time and money. If you would like to spend your money elsewhere then I wish you luck.

There's nothing like the Rockies in the springtime... Nothing like the freedom in the air... And there ain't nothing better than draggin calves to the fire and there's nothing like the smell of burning hair. -Brenn Hill
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post #15 of 144 Old 12-22-2009, 01:00 PM
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I agree with Kevin. If training a horse was easy then most horses would be well trained. Unfortunately most are not.

It is a passion with long hours low pay and a high chance for injury.

Find a good one and give them at least 90 days.
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post #16 of 144 Old 12-22-2009, 01:05 PM Thread Starter
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^Well then thats my bad. I do think he may be developing arthritis, but that has noting to do with this incident here--that has to do with how I approach his training as far as excessive lunging/round penning goes, but there's more than one way to skin a cat. As for the chiro, I have one visit left in the package I purchased, so why not use it now and cover all of my bases. I think I said it somewhere up there, but I'm 99% sure he's just being himself and it has nothing to do with pain. I did not mention the saddle fit as an excuse, someone else mentioned it since they saw I ride Western....I think it was barnprincess. I know for a fact that his saddle fits him fine, other wise his exploding would have happened long before now.

My trouble seems to be is that you were quick to rip me apart, but offered no suggestion as to how to fix it. Traditional fixes like one-rein stops are just going to be a band-aid in this case, since he doesn't know that he's doing wrong. I want to know how I can basically re-train him from something he's done his whole life.
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post #17 of 144 Old 12-22-2009, 01:10 PM
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So what you are asking for is " How to fix a horse in 500 words or less".

There's nothing like the Rockies in the springtime... Nothing like the freedom in the air... And there ain't nothing better than draggin calves to the fire and there's nothing like the smell of burning hair. -Brenn Hill
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post #18 of 144 Old 12-22-2009, 01:31 PM Thread Starter
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Yes and no...obviously I know there's no black and white concrete way to re-train a horse, but I figure why not ask here? There are plenty of people more skilled than me who might have some insight on the situation. The trainer I'm going with has experience breaking and starting babies and fixing problem horses, but not with re-training one, or at least not to this degree. So essentially, she can ride out his fits, but we kind of have to just guess at how to get him to think differently.
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post #19 of 144 Old 12-22-2009, 02:08 PM
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Quote:
I know for a fact that his saddle fits him fine, other wise his exploding would have happened long before now.
if you read what i said thats not true. . . my hrose rode in an ill fitting saddle for THREE MONTHS without incident. untill she had enough of being pinched and exploded into a bronco. three times she did this untill i realized hey idiot somethings wrong. and sure enough her saddle was sqeezing and pinching her shoulder movment as most ill fitting saddles do. look up on you tube how to make sure. and unless you had a fitter look you cant be 'know for a fact' because i said that too untill i had a professional come.

Quote:
My trouble seems to be is that you were quick to rip me apart, but offered no suggestion as to how to fix it. Traditional fixes like one-rein stops are just going to be a band-aid in this case, since he doesn't know that he's doing wrong. I want to know how I can basically re-train him from something he's done his whole life.

as ive worked with over 20 OTT tbs i dont suggest them to people who have not the slightest clue in re training them and starting over. most ott tbs need a down time to be a horse. we turned ours out for 2 - 6 months THEN started from ground work up. thats how you do it the right way. if you dont know how to fix it i suggest you get off the board and call a REAL trainer or some one who actually knows what they are doing.

Last edited by barnprincess; 12-22-2009 at 02:11 PM.
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post #20 of 144 Old 12-22-2009, 04:32 PM
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Chances are that he is reverting to old behavior because he doesn't understand what you are doing. When a horse reaches a point in confusion, they revert to what they know will work to get the pressure to go away. This is how serious buckers continue their habit and serious bolters continue theirs. I am a firm believer that a truely "caught" horse doesn't need to be wearing a halter and a truely "tied" horse doesn't actually need to be tied to anything. I do halter and tie my horses, but what you are missing is the frame of mind behind the exercises as we see them. Without the mind, everything else will be that more challenging. Its not a matter of riding out his fits, but figuring out what triggers them and how to fix that. At the same time, you would need to reshape his coping mechanism so that he could make his confusion known without putting you in danger. Everyone is telling you to go back to the ground because that is where you establish the leadership and respect that you need to re-train this horse. Holes in foundation training can go unseen for quite some time to the average person before they literally knock you on your butt. Thats what this is, its a hole, to fix what you are seeing, you have to fill the hole.
I personally don't understand how someone can start horses and fix problem horses without knowing how to re-train a horse. I know plenty of people that can start them from scratch, but can't undo something that has already been screwed up. But if someone is claiming to fix problems, I personally would want someone with more than a velcro butt.
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