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How to make the horse willing and why do people react as if the horse just hate them?

7K views 22 replies 13 participants last post by  riccil0ve 
#1 ·
I read a lot in forums and I often find myself thinking " Why do they immediatly come to the conclusion that the horse just wants to be difficult?"

Well, I can nderstand how frustrating it can be to have ruled out pain and fear and still not get the problem solved. And yeah, I've used force to get my will through, but still it oesn't eel quite right.

Horses have a very willing and cooperative attitude by nature. Sure, they're lazy too but not to an extreme point. So why do we always think they just like being difficult?

Also, horses generally likes to walk and run and use their bodies, even if it can be hard when they're unfit, they like excercise like people like TV ;)

So why won't the horse want to go further on that trail (=barn sour)? Why doesn't it like the dressage we try to ride? Because I am sure that some horses refuse just because they don't want to. My question is..why do they dislike it so much? And more important.. how can we make them ctually like it?

All this that they try to take over and you need to be the boss.. sure. You want to be the boss or else it's dangerous. But the horse don't mind being lead by a good boss, and I don't think a good leader is one that beats the horse as soon as it shows any sign of irritation or being bored. I think a good leader respects that and tries to make it fun or at least show compassion and make the less fun parts as few and interesting as possible, perhaps switching them to something else that gives the wanted result in the end.

Why does the horse refuse, if it'ds not in pain or scared? Is it bored? Is it uncertain if you're trustworthy and know what you're doing? Does it think that it's just not worth it?
And how can we change that?

Because I really, truly, deep inside me believe that all horses want to cooperate with their rider, if they just trust his or her ability and leadership, and if the rider makes things as interesting as possible. Motivate.

And I kbnow very well that a lot of you still believe that you have to overpower the horse with pure force so it knows you're the boss. While I think it's impossible to overpower a horse at all, unless perhaps if you tie it up and break it down by severly cruel methods.

So.. anyone with ideas on how to treat specific problems without force? How to make that barn sour trail horse enjoy the trail and wanting to leave the barn for it, or get that dressage pony to do the leg yields willingly even tho he really prefer the walk-trot transitions? Etc.
 
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#3 ·
I've been told (and do believe) that a horse is very much a mirror of their owner. If my horse is giving me trouble then the only one to blame is myself. I find it's much easier to correct myself before I correct him. Once I re-adjust whatever my shortcoming was, he falls right into place. I just got done having a discussion with my 9 year old, I told her there is no such thing as a "bad" horse, only bad owners.
 
#4 ·
Well, some horses do want to be difficult. It's not always an excuse. Horses are just as different from one another as people are to other people. Some are more easy going, some are more stubborn, and some like to cause problems.

That doesn't mean I don't take a step back and make sure I'm doing right by horse, that I'm doing things in the correct manner.

When I first got my filly, she didn't want to leave the barn and Ricci. But she had to leave. We pracited leading around the pasture, and she led great. But when I tried to take her away, she stopped. She doesn't want to go, and to make it fun, I have to make her go and once she's going, it gets fun. You can't just explain that on the other side of the door is your horse's most favorite treat or activity, you have to show them. So with Gracie, I took her in a circle and started walking again. When she went forward, she got praise, when she stopped, she got an "Ahh!" and a circle. And she learned that walking through the trails wasn't so terrible. It enticed her curiousity, and she got loved on a LOT.

My mare Ricci loves the trails. She doesn't have a barn sour cell in her body, she WANTS to be out there. But sometimes, she doesn't realize how much fun she has. We'll be out on the trails going along great, and she'll decide she's done. Well, no, we aren't done. So yes, she gets "forced" forwards, and then she remembers that, oh yeah, I DO like doing this! She'll go forever, she wants to cut new trails and gallop down any stretch we can. I don't need to make it fun, she knows it's fun.

If you have a child, and you want him to take piano lessons, or play hockey. You have to make him try it, because without trying it, they don't know if it's fun or not. And once they try it, you work out the results.
 
#5 ·
When I first got my filly, she didn't want to leave the barn and Ricci. But she had to leave. We pracited leading around the pasture, and she led great. But when I tried to take her away, she stopped. She doesn't want to go, and to make it fun, I have to make her go and once she's going, it gets fun. You can't just explain that on the other side of the door is your horse's most favorite treat or activity, you have to show them. So with Gracie, I took her in a circle and started walking again. When she went forward, she got praise, when she stopped, she got an "Ahh!" and a circle. And she learned that walking through the trails wasn't so terrible. It enticed her curiousity, and she got loved on a LOT.
But that's still ''making it fun''. A lot of people would have used the ''it's better to go than to stay'' and forced her forward with a whip or backing (y'know practically runing backwards with an angry human in your face-backing) or other forceful means.
 
#6 ·
It is better to go than stay. I may not be as forceful as some other people, but I'm not afraid to be forceful. She's going to be big, and she already tries to throw her weight around. She needs to know that doing what I want is better for everyone, and I'll do what it takes to make that point clear. I'm rough with my girls when I need to be, and they still love me to pieces.
 
#7 ·
I dunno. You've given me a lot of stuff to think about. I have a rather fiesty 2 year old, and while I try to keep it fun for him, at the end of the day, keeping it safe is far more important since his idea of "fun" normally involves pain on my end. That doesn't mean forcing or hurting him, but it does mean carrying a crop with me on the ground to help remind him where my personal bubble is (don't have to hit him with it, noise works just fine), because he's a teenager and teenagers, whether human or horse, get their first tastes of adulthood and like to test those around them to see where the boundaries are.

I do agree with everything you've said, though. I teach 7-12 grade and with my student's it's all about the motivation. I can force them to do problems, ala a quiz, but they won't do them well and they sure as heck won't learn anything. They need to have a reason or desire to spend their time. Horses have a lot in common with teenagers, for some reason. Or maybe it's just my perspective on both? I dunno. Anyway, I'm interested to see what other people think about this. :)
 
#8 ·
When it comes to personal space, kicking, biting and other things that's just downright respectless and dangerous, I don't hesitate to use force to fend for myself :) But I work to avoid all such confrontations. Example; instead of backing or pulling on a horse that tries to walk/run past me when I lead it, I just take turn and he's behind me again. If he tries to run into me or so I will hit him.

Thinking is good ;)
 
#9 ·
It goes back to the old saying, if your horse won't do what you ask, then you are asking wrong.
I think people have a tendency to attach human emotions to animals. They don't have the same emotional capabilities that we have.
 
#10 ·
I feel that solving problems without conflict is is very hard for some people and it was very hard for me at one time in my life.

It is much easier now and I feel that the horses respond to the approach much better and I enjoy the training more.

Horses can have troubles too, and sometimes those troubles are the people handling them.
 
#11 ·
Horses can have troubles too, and sometimes those troubles are the people handling them.

What we do when we're having owner issues while trying to get a horse on the trailer is ask the owner to go and get a broom.....:lol: Honestly once there gone horsey almost always steps on the trailer for transport.
 
#12 · (Edited by Moderator)
I've never owned a horse that is barn sour. Never had one that wasn't totally relaxed riding alone or in a group. Was not, courages, traffic wise, timid or refused to move out on new trails.
I am a strong rider and my horses reflect this strength.
I have worked barn sour horses, runaways, horses that couldn't ride alone, horses that wouldn't take leads
and they all belonged to weak riders, wimps, people that would rather sell the horse then do anything to force the horse.
A strong leader makes a strong confident horse. Timid riders make timid horses.
 
#19 ·
I didn't say it doesn't work to force them. I asked why we must force them and if it isn't better to make them want to cooperate without force.
A strong leader isn't necessary one that beats the horse to obedience, a strong leader shos the way, say what he or she wants and expects to be obeyed. A strong leader can also ask the horse what the horse wants and change his mind without ''loosing face'', or decide not to change his mind and still have the horses respect to do what it's asked.

Who'd you respect more? A boss that listens to you but at the ends is the one to decide what to do, or show you if you're not confident in your task. Or a boss that beats you up if you don't do exactly what he say without question. I'd have a rich experience and trust for the first one (if he knows what he's talking about) and respect him. I'd propbably obey the second one too but I wouldn't enjoy it or trust him. And horses arn't that different from us, we're both herd animals that wants to lead or be led by good leaders.

A weak, timid leader doesn't ask for anything firmly and isn't consistent when they ask. You sence they're nervous and personally.. I can't stand that, I just get all annoyed and unwilling by such people if they ask me for stuff. I can't imagine horses feeling better about them.
 
#14 ·
Some horses really want to please the people around them while others don't care as much about their human companions. My two are completely opposite.

The hypothetical situation is I want my horses to walk through a mud puddle.

Ricci loves to please me, she wants to make me happy, I can tell whenever we are together that she is trying to make me happy. That makes working with her so much easier, because she already has that mindset. So we come to the mud puddle. Ricci hesitates, "Why should we walk through the mud puddle? It looks deep and dark and wet and scary, there's probably monsters in the water." I give her a nudge that says, "There isn't any monsters, I want to walk through the puddle." And she'll go. Because I asked her to. Her reward is my happiness. Seriously.

Gracie, on the other hand, couldn't care less what I want. She loves me, she loves to cuddle and be rubbed on. But when we come up to this mud puddle, and I ask her to walk through it, she'll question my judgment. "Why should we walk THROUGH the mud puddle when there is a perfectly good path AROUND the mud puddle?" Gracie doesn't care that I want to walk through it, she isn't afraid of it, she simply doesn't see why she should have to do it. Gracie requires a lot more work, more persuasion and sweet talk, a firmer hand that says, "don't fight me, you'll lose." At least I need to make her believe she'll lose. She very much fights for dominance in our relationship, and I'm constantly working to prove mine. She needs that firmer hand and a good solid whack every once in awhile to show who's boss. So back to the mud puddle, she'll refuse because she doesn't want to, and I have to turn things around like WE are tackling this puddle together, that I'm not forcing her, but WE'RE going through the puddle. It's quite the challenge, and really hard to describe since you don't know my filly. I tried though. =]
 
#15 ·
I believe some horses just aren't made to do certain things...

I have a mare that was trained by a guy that trains world champions. She came from a high class barn and has THOUSANDS of dollars in her for training. She does it all, she's got the conformation, the looks, the movement... She won't show. The original owner turned her into a broodmare because she put 2 trainers on the ground and broke bones doing it. They decided they had spent just too much money on her. After they had four babies out of her, they took her to auction. My trainer picked her up not knowing much about her, other then the way she moved and the breeder on her papers. I bought her a few months later. (actually my mom did). My mom is a VERY beginner rider. Beauty plugs around for her all day long, ears up, nose out... happy as a lark. Put someone that knows what they are doing on her and she is tail swishy, ear pinny and just plain witchy. She hates to set her head and ride. She does NOT enjoy it.

She is the best beginner horse in the world. Very safe, very reliable. I saw one of her babies for sale on dreamhorse and e-mailed the seller, who turned out to be the original owner, that's how I got the background on her and found out about all the training efforts. She has SO many buttons. Won't show though, rides around like an arab. She hates it.

So in my opinion, you have a couple choices, you can take a horse like that and you can break their spirit so they ride like a machine, or you change your tactics and find something they enjoy.... She enjoys babysitting the beginners...

I believe horses are like people, some people play baseball... some people coach... some people like to play soccer, some like to take long strolls in the country... You have to find out who your horse is... OR you make them who you want to be... I prefer to find out who my horse is....and sometimes help guide them into what I want them to be along the way....
 
#16 ·
Great post, farmpony! I can't believe I didn't mention that! I'm all about doing what my horses enjoy. I've tried all sorts of activities with my older mare to see what she likes. She hates to get yanked around sharp corners, so gaming is out. She's really too spunky to do WP comfortably. She is taking to our dressage work wonderfully. But she LOVES trail rides, so I make sure that at least one ride a week is a relaxed ride down the trails, galloping when we feel like it for however long she'll go. It's fun to make her happy. =] She really likes to jump to, I just don't have much a set up for it, just the logs across the trails.

I've thought about what I'm going to do with Gracie when I start her. I don't think prancing around the arena will be enough for her. I think she needs more stimulation than a mere inanimate object, so I'm contemplating putting her on cows, because they will think back. I have a long way before I have to deal with it, but it's always something I think about.
 
#17 ·
It's wonderful that you are thinking so deeply about this and asking questions Zab. I commend you for that. Some people never think about this, and some people just don't want to because they don't care.

Horses never do something for no reason at all. Nothing means nothing, everything means something. If a horse spooks, he's not doing it to get out of work. He's doing it because he's scared IN EVERY CASE. Spooking is a fear response.

Any "negative" feedback we get from our horse (be it biting, kicking, rearing, bolting, herd sourness, not going forward, etc) shows us several things: 1) how our relationship with the horse isn't as strong as we might have thought, 2) that our foundation needs work (but this is a gift!), 3) that we have actually not been acting like our horse's perfect partner or leader.

Lets look at the unconfident horse first, the one who is herd sour. The horse views the barn/herd as the place of SAFETY. Horses want 4 things, safety, comfort, play, then food. If the horse doesn't feel safe, he isn't going to be comfortable and he certainly won't be worrying about playing and food. So it's our job to prove to the horse that WE are the place of safety, that he can trust us no matter what. But how do you do that? You DON'T do it by working the crap out of them when they act herd sour. That is just force IMO. The horse is only acting like a perfect horse (a prey animal) so he should not be punished for acting like what he is. You have to understand his mind set and really put yourself in his shoes. He's unconfident and scared to leave, so you work with approach and retreat of his thresholds and never ever push him over those thresholds. If you take the time it takes, your horse will start to view you as a worthy leader because you understand WHY he is acting herd sour and he will feel more confident in you because you aren't pushing him over his thresholds. A good leader isn't someone who forces and makes and has a predatory mind set.

Now lets look at the horse who is confident, lazy and sometimes argumentative. This horse is not scared. He isn't looking for a leader. He probably thinks people are useless and could care less about them. IMO this is the more difficult horse to work with because this is a matter of getting the horse to WANT to be with you, to see you as someone worth "talking" to and playing with, and more than that, to WANT to put his heart into things for us. So how do you do that with a horse who doesn't care about people? Undemanding time is the first thing. Don't always work this horse, take him out to graze, spend time scratching his itchy spots, get to know him. People often think that just allowing your horse to graze isn't DOING something in the sense of training.....but it IS doing something, it's making your relationship and rapport with the horse stronger. If you always want something from your horse (specifically this horse) and never give anything back, it won't take long for him to get a bad attitude about you. You just take and take and take and never give anything back in return. And people wonder why some horses are hard to catch, hmmmm. Anyway, the next thing to do with this kind of horse is give him MOTIVATION, INCENTIVE and a REASON for doing something. If you just go around in circles in an arena, that is BORING to this kind of horse. This kind of horse needs VARIETY, not so much consistancy. Motivation and incentive comes in the form of food, sctratches and rest. Using food as a motivator IS NOT BRIBING. There is a HUGE difference between bribing a horse to do something and using food strategically to get the horse motivated. These horses don't want to go forward because they see no point in it, and if the rider treis to force the body (in the form of whips, spurs, smacking, kicking, etc) the horse will shut down even more, put less effort into things and in some cases just stop and refuse to move altogether. I've seen some horses lay down on their riders. You CAN NOT force the body and get results. You MUST get into his mind and motivate him, otherwise the rider will be working harder than the horse, or the rider will just keep using spurs and whips and forcing the horse. Riding shouldn't be that hard! lol. If the horse won't go forward it's because the rider hasn't put enough emphasis on this horse's needs to feel a REASON for doing something. Point-to-point exercises using grazing spots is a wonderful way to get a horse more forward and positive in their attitude. Trail riding, riding on a loose rein, Freestyle riding (working toward TRUE bridleless riding), variety, straight lines vs. circles.....all these things can help a "lazy" horse (who isn't truly lazy, he's just unmotivated) become more forward and positive and to WANT to do things for the rider.

Here is a list (a long list lol) of what I think a true leader is for the horse, someone who is/has/gives/puts emphasis on:

safety, confidence, having a plan, knowledge, security, clear, fun, incentive, consistant, direction, fearless, motivated, resourceful, imaginative, focused, mentally athletic, solutionary, persistant, empowering, apologetic, provocative, brave, courageous, predictably unpredictable, predictable, caring, guidance, understanding, dependable, empathetic, calm, adaptable, flexible, patient, trusting, respecting, goal oriented (this can also be a bad thing), and supportive.
 
#18 ·
Now lets look at the horse who is confident, lazy and sometimes argumentative. This horse is not scared. He isn't looking for a leader. He probably thinks people are useless and could care less about them. IMO this is the more difficult horse to work with because this is a matter of getting the horse to WANT to be with you, to see you as someone worth "talking" to and playing with, and more than that, to WANT to put his heart into things for us. So how do you do that with a horse who doesn't care about people? Undemanding time is the first thing. Don't always work this horse, take him out to graze, spend time scratching his itchy spots, get to know him. People often think that just allowing your horse to graze isn't DOING something in the sense of training.....but it IS doing something, it's making your relationship and rapport with the horse stronger. If you always want something from your horse (specifically this horse) and never give anything back, it won't take long for him to get a bad attitude about you. You just take and take and take and never give anything back in return. And people wonder why some horses are hard to catch, hmmmm. Anyway, the next thing to do with this kind of horse is give him MOTIVATION, INCENTIVE and a REASON for doing something. If you just go around in circles in an arena, that is BORING to this kind of horse. This kind of horse needs VARIETY, not so much consistancy. Motivation and incentive comes in the form of food, sctratches and rest. Using food as a motivator IS NOT BRIBING. There is a HUGE difference between bribing a horse to do something and using food strategically to get the horse motivated. These horses don't want to go forward because they see no point in it, and if the rider treis to force the body (in the form of whips, spurs, smacking, kicking, etc) the horse will shut down even more, put less effort into things and in some cases just stop and refuse to move altogether. I've seen some horses lay down on their riders. You CAN NOT force the body and get results. You MUST get into his mind and motivate him, otherwise the rider will be working harder than the horse, or the rider will just keep using spurs and whips and forcing the horse. Riding shouldn't be that hard! lol. If the horse won't go forward it's because the rider hasn't put enough emphasis on this horse's needs to feel a REASON for doing something. Point-to-point exercises using grazing spots is a wonderful way to get a horse more forward and positive in their attitude. Trail riding, riding on a loose rein, Freestyle riding (working toward TRUE bridleless riding), variety, straight lines vs. circles.....all these things can help a "lazy" horse (who isn't truly lazy, he's just unmotivated) become more forward and positive and to WANT to do things for the rider.
This is what I have. He's 6 years old and I'm not sure of the methods used to train him. I suspect a lot of it was the old "cowboy" way. I couldn't seem to get through to him what I wanted. I backed off and started doing some of the stuff in Gawani Pony Boy's book. I just hung out with him sometimes. It really seemed to help our relationship and now Toby will come to me when I call to him. In the round pen, he will hang around with me and follow me. If something spooks him in the nearby woods, he will come to me for reassurance.
 
#21 ·
I'm no professional trainer, but I do know of several horses who have been labeled "bullheads" or similar. One in particular I worked with on trailering. I know the owners pretty well, and they LOVE this gelding. In one summer he went from pasture puff (in almost the most extreme sense of the phrase) to participating in one of the bigger local shows in my area, worked with and shown by a local trainer. The horse has had loading issues in the past (never anything physically traumatic, but he has been slightly sedated once to get into a trailer), but he had been loading like a gem at home, going short distances, unloaded, ridden, reloaded, and taken home, no problem. After a day of showing, though, he wanted nothing to do with the trailer. By the time I showed up, over an hour had passed since the show had ended, the trainer had gone home with her other horse, and this gelding was not on the trailer, the owners were frustrated and losing patience, and every wannabe horse whisperer on the show grounds was hovering around the trailer. I jumped out of the car and took the horse, and in 5 minutes he was on the trailer, nice as pie. Horse went home, and the owners tried it again, and after nearly 2 hours ended up putting him away only having achieved getting 2 feet on the trailer. I went on down to their place and messed with the gelding for a while, and got him loaded again with minimal problem.

The moral of the story is that this horse is NOT afraid, NOT angry, confused, or upset in any way. Ears comfortably forward, eyes soft, tail loose, blinking, trying to graze, etc. Getting on that trailer was JUST NOT HIS IDEA. The trick with him was to make it his idea. I led him as close as I could get him to the trailer, got him to look at it and stand quietly, but when he'd back away I would make that backing up my idea as well, if that makes sense (not "in his face" backing up, more like Showmanship type backing, calm, steady backwards movement). When he got harder to back, not as enthused about getting away, I immediately reapproached the trailer and allowed him to rest in it, no pushing back, no nagging forward, etc. Pretty soon, he got the idea that if he chose to go away, he was by extension choosing to work. Choosing to do as I asked and get on the trailer got him rest and relaxation.

I don't see that there is much physical force involved here. This particular horse has been proved to that he is stronger than a human, and if you try to force him physically (i.e., drag/shove his butt on that trailer) he WILL and HAS thrown his weight around, which I cannot hold, so I can't afford to start something I can't finish. All firm, gentle request, no pushing, no pulling, no food motivation, happy horse, happy owners. The funny thing is that many owners take it personally and think that it's because they were ten minutes late feeding this morning, or they were out of town and a neighbor did the last barn check before bed. IMHO, horses don't have an "I'll get them back" capacity, or a spite gland.

So, there's my novel for the day, lol.
 
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