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How to move the hinderquarters over, undersaddle?

1K views 4 replies 4 participants last post by  loosie 
#1 ·
Ok, this is probably the world's dumbest question, but I seriously don't even know. So bear with me. :lol:

Disclaimer: I'm not the world's greatest riding talent, nor do I have access to a knowledgeable instructor, so I'm kind of making things up as I go = we're getting there, but I don't have any idea of the names of half the things I'm training. I just know they should happen so I'm training for them. :lol:


So. I've been working lately with my guy on his lateral flexibilty. On the ground I can easily get him to move his forehand over - separately from his hind end, he easily moves his hind end away when I ask - separately from his front end, and I can ask him to sidepass for a step or two without any issues.

We just started working on moving his front end over undersaddle, and he picked it up quite quickly.

But now we've hit a wall, so to speak. I don't know how to get him to move his hindquarters over undersaddle.

I did train my mare to move her hindquarters, but she was more naturally inclined to it than this guy - her natural go-to was moving her hind end...this guy is the polar opposite = I can't just rely on dumb luck like I did with my mare.

Or maybe I'm thinking of it the opposite way of what it is, just in case, I'll describe:
He has no issue planting his hind end and going in a circle "around" his hind end.
I want to be able to also plant his front end and move his hind end.
Ultimately I want to be able to sidepass him, but I feel like moving the hindquarters is probably a step in that process...someone correct me if I'm wrong...



SO. Since he can do it from the ground no problem, how do I translate that into an undersaddle movement?
 
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#2 ·
With a slight contact on both reins, move your leg back about 2 inches and bump him with it and 'smooch' at the same time.

If he moves forward, tighten both reins. This 'closes the door' in front of him.

If he does not move away from the leg pressure, tighten the contact slightly on the same rein as the leg you are using and bump him harder.
What you are doing is closing the door in front of him and to the side you are using your leg on. This leaves the door open on the opposite side. You just keep upping the leg pressure until he moves his hind end over through that open door.

Most horses learn to move their hind end much easier than their shoulders. I practice it very little once a horse know to move both directions from the pressure.
 
#3 ·
This post amuses me a little, just because you have done this completely opposite of how I would approach this, I get control of the hindquarters on the very first ride. It just goes to show that there are many ways to skin a cat.

How are you trying to ask him now? What do you do when it doesn't work? What cue did you use on the ground that has not translated under saddle? How well does he do this on the ground. Does his inside hind leg cross OVER his outside hind leg?

Please do this in a snaffle, you want to be able to pick up on each rein independently without a lot of pressure on your horses mouth.

You're a ways away from side passing at this point. You need to get him disengaging softly and with some energy first. When I first teach side passing to a horse I really exaggerate moving the hindquarters over. This is because you need complete control of your horse to do more advanced lateral movements and all of that power comes from the hindquarters. Then before I ever side pass I get my horses moving off my inside leg very well.

Back to your question, disengaging the hindquarters is easy peasy. When you first teach it, you DO want the front end to walk a small little circle instead of just planting one foot and pivoting. This is because for later movements, you do not want the front end locked up or to get your horse thinking about getting on the forehand.

I always teach this with a dressage whip to back up my leg.

Flex your horse to the side and make sure he will stand still. When you flex you want the horses head to stay perpendicular to the ground. You don't want the head to twist sideways. If the head twists sideways, the horse is leaning all of their weight on their front end. When they flex correctly, the horses weight is much more balanced.

You are flexing your horse for two main reasons, it will keep your horse from just going forward and getting confused. The next is that by positioning your horses head and neck this way, the easiest step for him to take to remain balanced is to disengage.

Then, slide that same leg back. As you are moving your leg, you need to get your dressage whip ready. So if you flexed to the left, your left leg will move back. You want to slide your leg back to about where the back girth would be on a western saddle. You want to keep your cue spots far enough apart that it's easy for your horse to understand. When in doubt, move your leg back a little more.

You are just going to lay your calf and heel there. You are not going to kick or squeeze etc. After a moment of no response, take your dressage whip and very lightly tap him on the hindquarters in a "Tap, Tap, Tap" rhythm, all the while keeping your leg on. Then move to harder taps etc. As soon as he moves his butt away from that pressure at all, take your leg off and quite tapping. Immediately give him a rub, wait a moment and try again. I use a dressage whip instead of bumping with my leg for one main reason. Many horses will sull up when you bump. They will tighten their abdominal muscles and just stay put. By using a dressage whip on the hindquarters it better encourages a horse to actually move IMO.

By starting off with a very light cue, you are teaching him to be light off your leg. Once he understands the concept it will take less and less with the dressage whip to get him to move over.

After you have used your dressage whip a few times, you need to go back and casually rub on his hindquarters with it. You want him to respect your tool but not be afraid of it.

Only after you horse can do this well (disengaging this hindquarters, would I recommend using two reins and getting a more refined turn on the forehand as that's a bit more difficult for the horse.

Next I would recommend using every resource at your disposal to find out the why behind everything you teach. It is good to learn HOW to do things but without understanding why you teach things a certain way you won't ever really progress.
 
#4 ·
Thank you both! I will go give it a try this evening when I ride.
Cherie, I think your method is how I used to cue to my mare...it's just been so long that I forgot. :oops: Thanks for the reminder!

BR, I'll just answer your questions in bold on your post cuz they were god ones! Got me thinking! :D

This post amuses me a little, just because you have done this completely opposite of how I would approach this, I get control of the hindquarters on the very first ride. It just goes to show that there are many ways to skin a cat.
Haha! That's too funny. Unfortunately this guy is kind of a "reclamation" project - he's ten, was started who knows when...but was never taken very far. So he has some saddle time [he was too much for his previous owner but she got him out on the trail every month or so] but no real training. He was actually trained to ignore leg cues for a while [his previous owner had the bright idea to, since he was over-reactive to leg cues, just goose him in the sides until he stopped caring...and that went really great, as I'm sure you can imagine. haha He's just recently gotten to a place where he can calmly accept leg cues :D

How are you trying to ask him now? What do you do when it doesn't work? What cue did you use on the ground that has not translated under saddle? How well does he do this on the ground. Does his inside hind leg cross OVER his outside hind leg?
Undersaddle, I haven't tried at all. I did more damage than help when I just started trying things with my mare so, rather than just making something up, I figured I'd ask first, then try. :)
On the ground, I have him on a long-ish lead rope, then walk "into" his rear end. He'll then gets his rear out of the way, and voila. I can also stand at his head and wave my hand at his rear end, while clucking, to get a similar response [but somewhat slower, he "gets" walking into his rear, the hand waving takes him a second. haha].

Please do this in a snaffle, you want to be able to pick up on each rein independently without a lot of pressure on your horses mouth.
Of course!! This guy is light years away from neckreining [well, technically not light years...haha] but yeah, if the horse doesn't yield like a pro and the horse doesn't neckrein, he/she is absolutely in a snaffle. :)
He's in a loose ring, dogbone, snaffle with a copper roller.


You're a ways away from side passing at this point.
Absolutely. I was just stating my "life goal." haha There are at least a few steps before we actually get a sidepass! :D

Next I would recommend using every resource at your disposal to find out the why behind everything you teach. It is good to learn HOW to do things but without understanding why you teach things a certain way you won't ever really progress.
I couldn't agree with you more!
I'm reading "True Horsemanship Through Feel" by Bill Dorrance/Leslie Desmond right now and learning so many things!
I wish I could get some real instruction though. Unfortunately, for the level I ride at [sounds snotty, I don't mean it...I mean like I'm not a kid beginner and I know *how* -on a basic level- to ride/I'm pretty comfortable in the saddle, just not the finesse part] there's a serious lack of qualified instruction around here.
They all seem to expect that you're an adult wth a problem horse who'll bring your horse to a lesson to "fix it" or you are a small child who will ride a lesson pony...I've spent most of my horse time riding greenies and I have a greenie at home - I don't want to ride my horse in a lesson! I want to ride a horse that knows what the heck it's doing!! :lol::lol:
 
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