How would you work with this horse? - Page 6 - The Horse Forum
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post #51 of 58 Old 05-08-2013, 12:57 PM
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I loved this quote of yours, "but as is the way of these things, people can be quite selective in what they take away from these clinics and completely miss the underlying principles, or get hung up on the whole "respect" v. "disrespect" thing in a way that isn't actually useful for horse training."

So very well stated!
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post #52 of 58 Old 05-08-2013, 01:03 PM
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I think you're right. CA always says to ask with 2 ounces of pressure FIRST, and to reward the slightest try. But, mostly people see the rogues he fixes and try to duplicate smacking the lead, or smacking the nose or the neck,etc.
I still believe that a horse owner can benefit SO MUCH from a good solid set of lessons on calm, obedient horses who show you what to expect from a well trained horse. In my lessons, we never whaled on any of the horses. If you couldn't get the horse to behave, my instructor would get on and spend 5 minutes with the horse. He wasn't abusive, either, but the horse behaved for the student. In MY lesson program, I used MY horses and they listened to me and a short whip bc I stayed in the center of the arena. I was reminded of this watching a colt started series of Julie Goodnight's. She said to teach the horse on the ground, and the first rider was just a passenger, while the trainer gave orders in the middle of the round pen, then the rider translated to the horse. It was all calm and civil between human and horse, which is what MOST people want to do when training their horse.

A Jack and Three Queens, the latest book by James C. Dedman, Amazon.com
Hope that you fall in love with "Trot", like I did! http://www.horseforum.com/general-of...queens-617793/
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post #53 of 58 Old 05-08-2013, 01:53 PM
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Start her at the very beginning by teaching her to stand quietly and lead properly. It will teach her that pressure is removed from the halter as soon as you get what you want. Be sure to give her about 4' of lead so she doesn't have to crowd you. When this is down pat, trot with her and suddenly stop by throwing yours shoulders back a bit. She'll learn to watch them. Don't think so much about looking where you are going with your eyes but your shoulders. Exaggerate your movements at first then they can become more suble. When she will trot alongside and stop, switch to your lunge line and give her more lead. You are building a good foundation. Teach her owner to do the same and if she can't be bothered, let her know that her horse's destination is a can of dog food.
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post #54 of 58 Old 05-08-2013, 02:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Saddlebag View Post
Start her at the very beginning by teaching her to stand quietly and lead properly. It will teach her that pressure is removed from the halter as soon as you get what you want. Be sure to give her about 4' of lead so she doesn't have to crowd you. When this is down pat, trot with her and suddenly stop by throwing yours shoulders back a bit. She'll learn to watch them. Don't think so much about looking where you are going with your eyes but your shoulders. Exaggerate your movements at first then they can become more suble. When she will trot alongside and stop, switch to your lunge line and give her more lead. You are building a good foundation. Teach her owner to do the same and if she can't be bothered, let her know that her horse's destination is a can of dog food.
EXCELLENT advice!

A Jack and Three Queens, the latest book by James C. Dedman, Amazon.com
Hope that you fall in love with "Trot", like I did! http://www.horseforum.com/general-of...queens-617793/
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post #55 of 58 Old 06-07-2013, 07:48 AM Thread Starter
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Wee update:

(by the way, horse leads fine and does all of the above. Horse is never any trouble on the ground)

We most certainly found the root of this horse's troubles. We did an experiment yesterday where I rode the horse and tried to approach scary things and horse balked and tried to spin away from it. Then we did the same, only owner walked beside us and horse bravely approached scary thing. We then went out on a hack with me riding and owner walking. Passed all sorts of spooky objects and horse looked, but never balked, spooked, or spun. I am sure that for whatever reason, the horse has learned to trust and take confidence from people on the ground, but has never transferred that to people on her back. Once you're riding, she thinks she's no longer in her herd of two. Or she figures that if the lion jumps out of the pile of wood, she can run faster than a person on foot! That was the advice we had when living in the Colorado mountains. You don't have to run faster than the bear or mountain lion; you just have to run faster than your friends.

Joking aside, it made me wonder how many horses never make that cognitive leap from person on ground = leader/herdmate to rider = leader/herdmate and get written off as lazy/rude/sour/bad.
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post #56 of 58 Old 06-07-2013, 10:30 AM
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Not sure about this but I think a lot of it is down to people not using verbal cues when they start a horse on the lunge - either they lunge them just to wear them out and get used to the feel of the saddle or they use a whip/and or body language so when the riders on its back they have nothing to 'translate' from - I ask the horse to 'walk on' and give a small nudge with my heels, it eventually associates the nudge with the 'walk on' and so on
People talk to their horses on the ground all the time but quite often they go dumb when they get in the saddle
A lot of trekking horses are never broke to do anything more than follow the lead horse, we once took a small pony on trial that had worked 5 years with total novice children on her back riding out all day through the Welsh countryside and never put a foot wrong - put her on her own in a ménage and she just stood there - she had no idea what the aids/cues meant at all.
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post #57 of 58 Old 06-07-2013, 02:32 PM
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It sounds like you might have figured out a way to make some progress with her. I hope so .

Quote:
Originally Posted by thesilverspear View Post
Joking aside, it made me wonder how many horses never make that cognitive leap from person on ground = leader/herdmate to rider = leader/herdmate and get written off as lazy/rude/sour/bad.
I'd say that they are more common than most people think, but IMHO, it's no real fault of the horse's. Truthfully, I think the majority of them lack the experience with a good enough trainer to be taught to trust the person on their back.

There are so many riders who just try to sneak by when riding a horse, especially a young/green/spooky one. They purposefully avoid getting into any situation that might spook the horse so the horse is never taught how to react to being scared under saddle.

They ride the horse for a couple of months in a completely controlled environment without issue and start calling the horse "broke". Then, when they take the horse into a totally new situation and the horse gets overwhelmed by all the stuff he's never been exposed to, the rider loses control because they never practiced maintaining control in the middle of a panic attack.

Then, of course, it's always the horse's fault .

Always remember that feeling of looking at a big, open country over the ears of a good horse, seeing a new trail unwind ahead of you, and that ever-spectacular view from the top of the ridge!!! Follow my training blog: http://robertsontraining.blogspot.com/
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post #58 of 58 Old 06-09-2013, 08:36 PM
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This Welshie seems to be a classic & extreme Right-brained Introvert, if she freezes first, then explodes. Parelli has info on how to deal with each type, in the horsenality material.

After seeing Pat on dvd working with the 4 types, I can't imagine approaching every horse with the same strategy. Perhaps Welshie's owner'd want to buy just the one Savvy Club dvd with these demos, the January 2009 dvd. She might have to join SC to get it; not sure.
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