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The hypocrisy of Natural Horsemanship

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  • Is it true that a colt that bucks being introduced to the saddle will not buck when being introduced to the rider

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    08-16-2012, 08:37 PM
  #51
Foal
Clinton Anderson

Quote:
Originally Posted by LovesMyDunnBoy    
Personally, Clinton is one of my favorite NH trainers. I don't agree with everything he says.. But I like him.
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What I like about Clinton Anderson is he shows different horses in different stages of training and breaks it down so that someone like me (a beginner) can understand it and do it. He had a show on the other day on teaching a horse to flex. Brought our boys up from the pasture and had them doing it in a few minutes. (Our quarter horse already knew how, when I asked him to, he just flexed. Our Walker was a different matter, but once he got the idea, he flexed and looked at me as if to say, "Hello, mother" ).

I am seeing that it's better for me and my horses to not follow one person exclusively, but to keep an open mind, try it, and if it works that's great. If not, there's another way that will.

I don't know that what I'm doing is "natural horsemanship", but it sure is a lot of fun. :)
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    08-16-2012, 08:40 PM
  #52
Yearling
     
    08-16-2012, 08:47 PM
  #53
Trained
I would not call that bucking out a horse. That horse looked like he had issues with flack strap and anyone touching him in that area. With horses like that you just have to get them over it. There are a lot of things you can do on the ground and you could see he did with the rope. However once you change the angle of where it touchs him you will have the problem again. If you watched him he was hitting the horse with his hand in the flank area to get him use to it.
     
    08-16-2012, 09:09 PM
  #54
Weanling
I don't really consider that bucking a horse out, my little haflinger actually almost touches his nose to the ground and his butt is all the way up he doesn't want to accept someone on his back at all. He is a angel in the roundpen knows his groundwork, but I knew he wasn't going to accept a human on his back. A friend of mine asked if he could try and I told him right off the bat if he bucks you off you better be ready to get right back on I want him to accept a rider not learn how to rid himself of one. At least 15 buck offs later he finally accepted him on his back then my friend got off. I'm definitely in a pickle trying to figure out how to get him to the next level. I'm going to do some research over the winter and come up with a plan for spring My one thing that I draw the line at is hitting him or beating them into submission.
     
    08-16-2012, 09:15 PM
  #55
Yearling
Yeah reiner this horse wasn't doing much. Even less than the horses in the first vid I posted. Yes I know about desensitizing the flanks. It's the root of most bucking problems. Many a trail rider has been pitched when they first put a back cinch on ole roany and loped off down the road. Well he never did that before. When we had a buckin horse that didn't do a good job that's what they got. Front and back till they quit flinching and dropped their head a little, then jump on and ride. They usually didn't try too hard after that and some made good pickup horses. Doin that to a colt gives you a good guage of how hard they'll try to buck. Anyone with some experience will get an idea of how they react to pressure in the flanks, cinch, etc. then they saddle up and get on, while onlookers are OOhing and AAAhing expecting an explosion. When they get on without incident, people think they worked some kind of magic. They just read the colt.

Sorry to get into a big deal about buckin horses. I don't think there's any difference in these horses bucking and a colt bucking the first time you ride with a saddle. They're all reacting. Most people think a colt was tryin to buck them off. Well most of the time when you saddle em, if you turn em loose, they'll buck with a saddle whether you are on or not.
     
    08-16-2012, 09:22 PM
  #56
Foal
Doesn't buck, but might bolt

Quote:
Originally Posted by AmazinCaucasian    
yeah reiner this horse wasn't doing much. Even less than the horses in the first vid I posted. Yes I know about desensitizing the flanks. It's the root of most bucking problems. Many a trail rider has been pitched when they first put a back cinch on ole roany and loped off down the road. Well he never did that before. When we had a buckin horse that didn't do a good job that's what they got. Front and back till they quit flinching and dropped their head a little, then jump on and ride. They usually didn't try too hard after that and some made good pickup horses. Doin that to a colt gives you a good guage of how hard they'll try to buck. Anyone with some experience will get an idea of how they react to pressure in the flanks, cinch, etc. then they saddle up and get on, while onlookers are OOhing and AAAhing expecting an explosion. When they get on without incident, people think they worked some kind of magic. They just read the colt.

Sorry to get into a big deal about buckin horses. I don't think there's any difference in these horses bucking and a colt bucking the first time you ride with a saddle. They're all reacting. Most people think a colt was tryin to buck them off. Well most of the time when you saddle em, if you turn em loose, they'll buck with a saddle whether you are on or not.
Mine has never, ever offered to buck (although I know any horse can) but he has been known to bolt off a time or two, just leave the group on the trail and take off for the horizon. Any tips for that? (And, no, we'll never get rid of him, he's here forever, it's just something I'm going to have to figure out )
     
    08-16-2012, 09:47 PM
  #57
Green Broke
My grandfather owned a ranch a ranch on the NV/CA border(supposedly he owned more but lost the deeds in poker games) My grandfather has long since passed but talking to my dad he recalls how the horses were started. Pops recalls starting colts a lot like how my husband and I have done working in the same region. Horses ran loose and started in that period of late winter when the snow is not too deep but springs works hasn't begun. They were brought in roped, haltered and snubbed. Then sacked out with gunny sacks or a pair of chaps to the point where they would accept being handled and touched. Breaking to lead involved a stout halter horse or a ranch pickup. My dad recalls those vertical bars on the back of a truck made handy for tying a horse to. He also says he was never allowed to drive because he had a led foot..lol... someone that had a good feel drove to teach. Usually the first ride was pretty uneventful but he always like to see a good bronc ride, on occasion one would blow up. Colts were always tied to the snub post, corral post or a tree to be taught patience. You knew spring was coming if horses were tied in the pens!

My grandfather was not opposed to buying nice broke horses as well, he loved quality horse flesh. And had no problem finding them as all his brothers cowboyed all over NV and CA and would send nice horses his way. That is how my great great aunt had met Will James. The uncles were friends with him and they had cowboyed together. Later him and aunt Alice had married. Anyhow enough family history....

On his place horses weren't abused or bucked out. Sure the first few days were a little rough for them colts but they all turned into nice horses..otherwise them 'utes that used to work for him would of got pissed and shot them all...lol

I suppose it depends where you grew up as to what is acceptable. Basically what my grandfather did is not too far off from what I have done starting ranch horses. I am not a bronc rider and I managed. But that doesn't mean there was not guys who rode rough string. There was work for them guys too. There were tough horses and plenty of them. Look at the Spanish ranch it still has the reputation of having tough horses. And my FIL worked for Merv at Squaw Valley....guys used to puke in the morning before they had to climb on their horses. They would send 3 guys to wrangle and only 1 might make it in the cavvy. Merv had leg braces to fit a stirrup if you got bucked off and busted a foot or leg so you could keep working...if not you were fired, he would find someone else to ride.

It depends on where you went. No different than now, if you go to different regions within states, even, the ideals and norms for training change.

Point being, not everyone bucked horses out like you see on the movies. And just because a horse bucked or was counterfeit doesn't necessarily mean that he was bucked out from the start. Horses and people are individual, saying a time period defines a training method would be like claiming a horse or person defines a method, that is not true. It is individualized.
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    08-18-2012, 04:27 PM
  #58
Weanling
NH or not all I know is that each of my horses and the ones I have trained in my much younger days, had different personalities and behavior types, but all responded to kindness, patients and discipline when needed. I have watched how mares interacted with their youngens and that's about what they did so maybe that is the true NH method.
     
    08-18-2012, 04:34 PM
  #59
Weanling
OWCHICK77 I love The story about your grandparents and their ranching days. I think it would make a great movie.
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    08-18-2012, 09:10 PM
  #60
Super Moderator
I have always been an avid 'observer' of horses and training techniques. I have done this since I was a child. Observation and studying 'cause and effect' were my interest longer than I can remember. This has included watching herd dynamics in herds of all mares, all geldings, mixed herds and 'natural' herds with at least one stallion. They are all a little different but are all quite a bit the same. Then, seeing how those different herd members 'trained' and interacted with people and accepted and learned from training techniques has very much fascinated me for most of my 66 years.

It has been my observation that bucking is a 'natural' athletic move made by a normal horse as a fear response. A feral horse or an untrained horse that has not been taught to accept a saddle or something around the girth / belly will naturally try to buck off a saddle if it is just introduced without any preparation and desensitization to the unnatural feel of the saddle and girth. To an untrained horse, it is no different than the response you would observe if a mountain lion jumped on the horse's back.

When I watched bronc riders put a saddle on an untouched horse, it would fight and squeal and buck, sometimes throw itself over violently, would sometimes try to attack the handlers and usually ended up tied down or snubbed and choked or nearly choked down.

If the horse was turned loose to 'get it out of his system', he would frequently buck to exhaustion or near exhaustion and finally quit. Some would buck with a rider then and some would not. Some would buck again the next day but others would not. Some bucked every morning for many days and some never gave up the new 'habit' created by throwing a saddle on and letting them buck. Some of these horses will buck in the morning 10 years later. Some got sick of bucking and really did get it out of their system and others just kept getting more practice and kept getting better at it. Some turned into 'cold backed' horses that bucked every morning or every morning when they were particularly 'fresh' or it was really cold or their rider got in a hurry to saddle and mount or ???? They were just looking for an excuse for years to come.

Bloodlines in the registered horses or those herds that had a registered stallion (as was common on early day big ranches) were pretty consistent as to whether they got over it or got better at it. I was not very old by the time I had gotten pretty good at predicting what different horses were going to do.

By the time 10 or 12 years old, I was determined that you could 'teach' a horse to accept a saddle just like you could teach him anything else you were good enough at to teach. By the time I was 13, I was accepting horses to 'break' and very few of them EVER bucked. By the time I was 20, I was starting 50 head or more every year and 1 or 2 would buck THAT SOMEONE HAD NOT ALREADY TRIED TO BREAK AND LET BUCK BEFORE I GOT THEM! These are the methods that I built on and I still use today.

I never, never, NEVER let a horse buck with a saddle, EVER. I gradually get a horse used to a girth by using a rope and then letting a horse stand around tied with surcingle on. When I first put a saddle on a horse, it usually does not do anything or even act like it has anything new on it.

If a horse is pretty 'goosey', jumpy, pushy or fearful, I may saddle him up in the morning and let him stand around all day just saddled. Every time I walk by, I will grab the saddle-horn and shake the saddle hard, flop the stirrups around and just keep doing this until the horse fully accepts the saddle and every move I make around them.

Everything I taught myself to do came from watching the bronc riders and cowboys that skipped steps 1 - 20 and went straight to step 21. I was so determined that it did not have to be that way that it completely molded what I did later.
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