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The hypocrisy of Natural Horsemanship

11K views 68 replies 31 participants last post by  jaydee 
#1 ·
Ran across this vid on YouTube. I've been preaching about the phony practices of Natural Horsemanship for a long time. If I remember right, my very first post on this forum was a rant against NH. It's not their method I dislike, it's the constant ridicule of cowboys and their "techniques". They'd like the general public to believe cowboys just whip a horse into submission. Just get on and spur the hair off of em and jerk on their face. Well, I'm here to tell you folks, they don't do things that way. Maybe they were tougher on horses 50 or 100 years ago, but EVERYBODY was harder back then! And I can tell you, the cowboys I know are easier on a horse than most horsemen, especially when they get one handy and dependable. When they can go do a job and make their living on an animal, spend day after long day in the saddle, and love every minute of it, do you really think their going to abuse the great animals that make their lifestyle possible? Hell no they aren't. There are a couple video clips these TV clinitians use (showing men in hats whipping, and horses rearing) and they've run it into the ground.

This video is a perfect example. I think Clinton is a great hand, and probably bar-none the best male rider I've seen. His horses perform and his techniques work.

However, watch at 1:06 how he ridicules cowboys and "their methods" of bucking horses out, but in this 3 minute video, he's seen bucking 4 horses out, whipping with a longe whip and a traditional whip, horses crashing fences, and at least 2 horses flipping over backwards.

So me deal is...if that's what you do, fine. I don't have a problem with his program. But don't criticize and accuse cowboys of being crude and rough, then whip and knock and crash in front of the world. People don't be stupid. And all of these NH guys do this, not just this guy.

 
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#3 ·
They make other cowboys sound like big meanies because they're trying to sell themselves.... everybody tries to do that. It's a business. I don't like it, but at least the methods work. Hell, all methods work if they're do the right way. Some are bad methods, others good, but in the end it all boils down to who does it right.
 
#4 ·
I did hear him say "the old traditional cowboys". When horses were plentiful and cheap and little time to break them in they were saddled and bronced out and often a quirt was used. It was all about dominance. Clinton is working with out of control horses that have become dangerous. No pussy footin' around horses like these.
 
#6 ·
Hey now... it was the horse's idea to buck and flip over - not his! That's why it's Natural Horsemanship - the horse NATURALLY had crazy thoughts.

All joking aside, I don't like making blanket statements of "All people do this" or "all people do that". Not all people who use NH methods apply them in the same way - just like all "cowboys" don't train in exactly the same way.

Really, it works both ways. People have to approach learning about something as opinion-driven as horse training with an open mind and open ears.
 
#7 ·
In the 1800s, a wild horse might get 3 or at best 4 sessions with a bronc buster before being considered broke enough for a common ranch hand. Not many folks can get a wild horse adequate for riding in a few hours. It was a very different world, and we shouldn't judge them by modern standards. On my tough days, I'm not 1% as tough as the average ranch hand was then.

There are modern cowboys who are jerks, but a smart fellow told me in my teens that in any occupation, at least 30% of the guys are jerks. Some professions go much higher. I've got a horse that was spurred bloody by a cowboy, but the same horse had been ridden by a number of cowboys before that without injury. In fact, all that previous riding had left him a fine, well mannered horse...although it only took one bad one to cause him harm.



It is worth remembering that modern NH is entertainment. The difference between the lady who trained my horses and the TV trainers is that she isn't on TV, she takes more time and gets paid a whole lot less. She also doesn't have to bad-mouth anyone. Most of her clients come from satisfied customers...

I think Clinton is good enough, tho, to knock off the bad-mouthing.
 
#8 · (Edited)
I mostly agree. But, I do think there are better male riders than CA. They are trainers first and clinicians second (or not at all). Men like Al Dunning, Les Vogt, Bob Avila, etc.

In defense of CA 'bucking out horses'. In the video, he is dealing with badly spoiled horses. Dealing with horses that already know how to buck someone off is a LOT different than the old timers getting on an un-handled horse and riding it out with no pre-training of any kind. When I was a kid, it was not unusual for 'cowboys' to bring in a 5 year old un-handled horse, rope it, throw it, saddle it and ride it all in one day. The next day they would go out and gather cattle on one of these horses.

This is the 'old' image of a cowboy that, unfortunately, is still around today even though that kind of cowboy has long since disappeared. I can remember when the big ranches never halter-broke a colt until it was 5 and ready to 'break'. Thankfully, that has changed over the years --- but the image has not.

I'm afraid there are fewer options for fixing badly spoiled horses. One still has to get a lot rougher on them to make them 'want' to do things in a more acceptable way.

As far as calling it 'Natural Horsemanship'. There is nothing 'natural' about it. I have always just called it 'common sense horsemanship'. You use a horse's natural instincts, its 'flight and herd instincts', to 'teach' it to interact with us in an acceptable way that is advantageous to us and gets a job done that we have designated for it to do.

You tell me there is anything 'Natural' about that.
 
#9 ·
I can't listen to the current clinicians. They talk too much.

I do get tired of hearing cowboys bashed. Whether current ones or the old timers who were supposedly just a notch above Neanderthals. Good cowboys were good horsemen. I read a lot of the history from my area, and abuse of horses was never tolerated. Horses weren't that easy to come by, even if they were taken from feral herds. Criminy, you really think some idiot would abuse a horse just to abuse it when that was his only way home? You really think a rancher would let a $30/mo hand injure a horse? Horses have always gone on the asset side of the ledger. For that reason alone they were treated okay, not to mention beating doesn't work and never has.

You see old photos of horses bucking. Cameras weren't that available and developing photographs was quite a process. Photographers took photos of unusual occurances and only developed the most unusual of them. A horse who was a known and good bucker was unusual. Not many photos of a bunch of grade geldings and mares plodding through the dust after cattle. But that most of what ranching is.

Sure more of the horses back then bucked bad. I think a lot of that has been bred out of both the QHs and TBs. But we still have some that are quite prone to buck. You just have to work with it.
 
#24 ·
Damn I had to actually go watch the video after reading that, and yes, funny.


I don't know much about CA, but I like his enthusiasm, and from that little clip he reminds me a lot of Cesar Millan, he is a great reader of those little signs that we may miss, and he deals with stuff at that stage.

I am just learning that with Ben and Willow, now I have moved from kindergarten (Mr G) into first grade, and life has got tougher, these horses are less forgiving, and they point out when I make a mistake, and if you miss the clue that something is going to happen, then you have a wreck of some sort to deal with.

NH not NH, I actually don't care as long as you are producing a horse that someone else has a chance of handling.
 
#12 ·
I am not a 'natural' fan, there are a lot of things I do not like about CAs methods - chasing a horse around on a very tight circle for one thing. Mostly I dislike the 'my way or no way' hype.

I have started hundreds of horses, most are easy if handles correctly, so me will question why certain things are being done and very few, hate the idea. All are different.

What CA has is the ability to read the minute body language signs and correct before things happen. That is all.
 
#20 ·
Totally off topic... But when I was a kid and was bad, my Mum would do the 'wait til your Dad gets home thing'. My sister and I would run to the far side of the dining room table and wait there, Dad would chase us around the table, pulling out chairs to slow us down before we finally got our wallop, which would of course be harder because we had just peed him off too. It never worked too well for me.
 
#14 ·
The woman getting chased - this was her fault. Inexperienced people will run if a horse approaches boldly, thinking it will run over them, rather than step toward the horse with arms up. Horses don't like to get hit in the face and will veer away. This is handler error. If it happens again the horse has an aha moment and turns it into a game and realizes it can chase it's handler away because of her lower rank. In the video we are seeing this in action. In time he becomes dangerous and he continues to assert his dominance.
 
#15 ·
It is wrong of me as well AlexS but I have to admit I laughed as well.

I personally don't see anything wrong with the way that CA describes cowboys, I wish I could set my fear aside and get on a horse and ride it out lol it's because of my healthy fear and others as well that horses become spoiled babies that tell us what to do.

In the beginning when I first started out the lunge whip looked like a torture device. I put my own feelings inside of the horses head and that is a mistake.

I actually thought that you get on a horse and let them have their buck on when they stop then they are trained lmbo man I was so naive. I thought that natural horsemanship was the long way around the mountain for people who were afraid to hit the dirt.

It wasn't until my gelding would lift his leg like he was going to kick out at me that I finally wised up and said enough.

Without people like CA I would never have been able to get past a lot of stuff. I'm not going to lie, the more that I'm entertained. the more, I pay attention when watching shows and video's.

The only difference I see to the cowboy way vs natural horsemanship is one puts the stress on the horse from the saddle and the other from the ground. So when CA says that the cowboy days are over I take it as a lot of people aren't cowboys and they need another method to be able to take control of a horse and ride.
 
#16 · (Edited)
That stigma will always be placed on cowboys, just like Dressage or Show Jumpers are stuck up princesses spending daddys money, team ropers whip their horses everytime they miss and all barrel horses are crazy and out of control.

Even back when the times, the horses and the people were tougher there was an appreciation for the ranch horse. There is a book written by the late Will James from the 40s called "Horses I Have Known".
When he speaks about the tough dirty ones there is admiration for them. Granted Will had the tendency to over exaggerate in his stories but you get the point.
I consisder my husband to be a good cowboy, and the one thing that I have noticed about good cowboys that I admire is the ability to see the good in all their horses. My husband can appreciate and can find something good in every horse he rides rather than pick them apart. He had horses that would try to peel out about the time he would get something roped, he would take a few turns, sit on his coils and let them hit the end. Instead of getting mad and harpoon the **** out him, he would just giggle get by the best he could and love the things the horses did well.

Ranch horses may not be rewarded in cookies and lengthy grooming sessions, but after a long hot day of mashing cows we might unsaddle in the shade give them a drink from the ditch, before making the long trot back to trailer were the ice chest awaits on the back of the flat bed. And that is enough for them.

Abuse simply isn't tolerated. Even riding a sore or lame horse is a big no no as as owning a saddle that will sore a horses back. Bsms, if the guy that did that to your horse worked anywhere that I know of he would of been ****canned in a hurry. Word gets around quick and he wouldn't of been able to work anywhere within earshot.

I am not saying that cowboying is all butterflies and sunshine. They expect a lot out of the horses, but they appreciate it too. A cowboy in the simplest terms is a caretaker of livestock. Horses are not only livestock but a partner.
 
#17 ·
Training.. is not about conflict.. it is about applying pressure to get a response. If you don't know when to apply the pressure, how to apply pressure or how much pressure is needed you won't train the horse. To know that you have to be able to read the horse.

I never heard of "Natural Horsemanship" until I got looking at some on line stuff.

I just trained the horse.....
 
#18 ·
Well now I don't feel bad about laughing when the horse was chasing the lady. I laughed too. It was like the horse was using NH methods on HER to establish his dominance by keeping her feet moving.
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#19 ·
My biggest problem with NH is how people I've known take to it. They mostly do two things. Get militant about any punishment to a horse no matter how mild. Second is treat and train their horse like a giant dog they dont ride. Which brings up another point, most people I know that have gotten into NH are afraid to ride.

Back to the dog thing. If you're going to train and treat your horse like a dog then go get a dog. They are a heap cheaper to buy, keep and feed. Then you also don't have to fend off questions from people on why you are not hopping on their back and riding instead.
 
#21 ·
The true cowboy way unfortunately has been given a bad rap because that's how the cowboy way of breaking and training were portrayed on TV, but not the true cowboy way. Natural training has been around for as long as mankind has been ridding horses even a lot of Mexican training has gotten a bad rap. I have known some very old timers including my own father, who broke and trained horses and heard over and over again almost the same story. They didn't roughshod the horses, Their horses were their companions and their lives and lively hood evens depended on them. Their horses had to have a loyalty and trust that, that kind of training that would break the trust, loyalty between them.
 
#28 ·
I LOVED the video!

I've heard a few bad things about CA, and I've never met him in person, but everything I have seen of him on video/TV has left me feeling he is a great horseman.

I agree. I am not a big CA fan. However what he does works. They are not new by any means. They are things I have been doing long before I ever heard of CA.

Those horses where not your tipical easy going horses and if he did not push them and apply pressure and make them work they would have just kept running over people.
 
#25 ·
I'm late to the party so I don't know if this has been covered,

But Clinton ridicules the "bucking it out". But he's not afraid to get after a horse that's being disrespectful in order to fix the problem. If you wath him starting colts there is SO much going on, and never once does he "buck it out". I don't understand where the hypocrite part comes in, it's two differant things.
 
#34 ·
I agree with Cherie; CA is by no means the best male rider out there.

And his ego is just about as big as Australia. If I were a horse, I'd rather be the horse trained and ridden by Chris Cox or Buck Branaman than the one trained/ridden by CA.
He said plainly that he is NOT the best rider. He said he doesn't even have natural talent at training horses or riding, but he's good at training people. That's why he's a clinician and not a horse trainer.

As for the ego... I'd agree haha. But that's why I enjoy listening to him, he seems very sure of himself and he's hilarious. I'd have a huge ego too if I were him.

Edit: He didn't say that in the video, but he said it on his tour.
 
#27 ·
I am not sure what you seem to think he did so wrong? Those horses have learned from their owners that they can get away with this stuff. They are dangours horses. You have to be just as forceful as they are.

Keep in mind that CA did not flip that horse. The horse fliped himself. I have have a horse who did that too. They work so hard to get out of somthing that they end up doing things. SO what? Let the horse contiue to get away with it? Not here. If those has been my horses CA would have looked like an angle.
 
#47 ·
I am not sure what you seem to think he did so wrong? Those horses have learned from their owners that they can get away with this stuff. They are dangours horses. You have to be just as forceful as they are.

Keep in mind that CA did not flip that horse. The horse fliped himself. I have have a horse who did that too. They work so hard to get out of somthing that they end up doing things. SO what? Let the horse contiue to get away with it? Not here. If those has been my horses CA would have looked like an angle.
Not sure if this was for me Reiner. I'll respond as if it was...

I don't think he did anything wrong. I said this in the first post. I've seen plenty of CA and I think he does fine. Folks please if you think I'm bashing people's techniques, read the original post again.

Doesn't matter to me if he flipped the horse or the horse flipped itself. It's not halter-broke if it's running backwards and flipping. 30 minutes tops being ponied with a good broke gelding and you could tie those horses up with a string and use em for heelin practice without an explosion
 
#29 ·
why do people act like all NH trainers act like they invented NH ? i dont get where people are getting that, i only know of one trainer (maybe 2 if you count rick gore) who act like that.
 
#30 ·
I am not sure any of them actually think they invented NH for the most part. I think PP has gotten the big head and most of what he does is more marketing then anything.

I think that the first big mistake that most of these trainers do is put the NH label on these things.
 
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