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I need HELP >.<

14K views 155 replies 33 participants last post by  PunksTank 
#1 ·
Today was a very frustrating/infuriating day. My mare has ALWAYS been terrified of leaving her paddock at our last home. I found many excuses for her behavior about her past, about her fear issues, then I settled that it was because there were too many scary things outside that barn. I moved to a new house where I could keep her and there is nothing around besides grass, grass and more grass. The only potentially scary thing is the dumpster for the manure. She has her friend, a pony, living with us. With a great deal of work she is no longer herd bound. I walked him out in circles where she could and couldn't see him for periods of time progressively making the time she couldn't see him longer until she just didn't care anymore. I can now take the pony out for hours on hikes without any fuss from her.

Now when we first moved to our new house I said "I am nipping this no leaving the paddock thing in the bud!" The fourth day she was in I marched her giant patooty outside her paddock, past the dumpster and found a good place to let her graze. She calmly walked out, calmly ate grass and then coming back she got a little nervous of the dumpster (odd because this time I was between her and the dumpster) but we walked past it back and forth about 10 times until it no longer phased her.

Then the past almost 3 weeks the bugs have been SO completely miserable I've only been able to put her out long enough to do her stall, or not at all. She has a serious allergy to bug bites and it's been awful lately so I didn't want to risk letting her out much. But we practiced all our basic ground work techniques for a few minutes every day. Yielding her hind end, front end, backing up, leading and halting in turn with me, turning to and away from me without ever invading my space. She has been doing incredibly well with all these skills. She has learned to put her head down with just a tiny amount of pressure on her halter, even when we are walking by a scary object she'll put her head to the ground.

Well today was pretty cool and there weren't too many bugs so I decided today would be a good day to venture out again. We practiced all our ground work skills until she was very light, as usual. I opened the gate and she backed violently away from it to the end of the lead rope before I managed to stop her backing. I immediately made her lunge in a tight trot around me until I got lip-licking. I marched her toward the gate BOOM she's backing up again!! So I do what a number of trainers had told me and backed her up more. I backed her until she was all the way at the other end of the paddock. And that's where we stayed for a good 20 minutes. She would NOT move any forward steps AT ALL. I was ****** at this point and was yielding her hind and front end quite aggressively. She was spinning till she was dizzy - but STILL wouldn't take a step forward. I decided forward wasn't the way to go, so I zig-zagged her accross her paddock, whenever she stopped I changed direction but still walking a tiny bit toward the gate. This took about 30 minutes of me getting more and more furious and repeated yielding practices. Finally she got to the gate opening. At this point I was exhausted and furious and I was willing to take ANYTHING she'd give me. So I went as far as the rope would reach and stood there holding all my strength on the rope. I just waited. After about 5 whole minutes she took 1 step forward. I let her eat some grass and while eating she meandered a few more steps out of her paddock. She got the front half of her body out of the paddock and then started to graze backwards so I decided to just call that a day.
I turned to walk her back to her paddock and she lunged past me scared of something, god knows what. I turned her around and marched her back to where we were grazing I was NOT going to let it end on that note! She went back, ate some more and we turned back more slowly this time I made her face the wall that she was now suddenly afraid of for no reason. We looked at it, walked by it, turned and walked by it in both directions a few times - then went back home.

I'm exhausted, furious and my back is killing me.

I have asked for help from a number of trainers and had a few come to help me. One was a big cowboy who tried forcing her out and had essentially the same story as what I just posted. Another tried bribing her out with grain, which she just didn't care about. Others tried all the same ground work, repetition - no go. People have suggested just about everything to me but NOTHING has worked. What do I do?
Do I just keep doing what I did today pushing a little further each time?
Clearly trucking her to a trainer wouldn't work as this issue restarted every time she moves. And clearly no trainers in my area seem to know how to fix this. -.-'

I'm going to ask a woman who delivers my hay who worked with draft horses to see if she has any ideas. I'm out of options. I'm at the point where this horse will just be a complete pasture ornament, because I KNOW she'd never be able to find another home, not that I'd want to give her up anyway regardless of whether or not she can leave her paddock.

I kept reminded her ALL day today the only reason she wasn't on a truck to auctions was because she's SO freaking pretty!
 
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#2 ·
I told you a long time ago what I would do with her but you rejected 50 years of having it do wonders for every horse I have ever trained.

I suggested tying her out until she got relaxed and happy. I would not even bother training a horse that I have not already taught to be patient and non-reactive. It would be a HUGE waste of my time and I would get little done with them, kind of like you are not getting done now.

They do a far better job of teaching themselves than anything we can do with them.

So, do whatever YOU think will work. I would just ask: "How's it working?"

Cherie
 
#3 ·
Like I said last time, I don't have a single thing I could tie her to that she won't kill herself on anywhere I can get her too. The only trees on my property are a good walk outside of her paddock and I have NO other thing to tie her to. I don't have the money to buy those fancy patience poles. Also, she ties fine. I can tie her to the spots I tie her and she's fine, she'll stay there as long as I want. She doesn't paw or pull or fuss. So what would be the point of tying her to anything else? If she ever felt truly threatened or afraid, if she were tied and couldn't get away I'm SURE she'd kill herself before giving in. I know her.

Perhaps for her previous herd bound issue it could have worked, tying her away from her friend, but she no longer cares where the pony is. So tying her somewhere would just result in her standing for hours, getting eatten by bugs and causing her allergic reaction to flare up worse than ever. To be tied and not be able to get away from the bugs eating her. And no matter how much I bug spray her the flies out now just don't care.

I'd love any suggestion that may help though - It took me a long time and a lot of thinking to decide tying her out for multiple days was a BAD idea for my horse. Maybe it would work for other horses or horses who need to learn to tie, but it just isn't going to do anything productive for her. But I appreciate your suggestion - and I wish it would be as simple as tying her to a tree for hours then *poof* she's a perfect horse.
 
#4 ·
Do you have a pasture you can put her in? I would put her out of the barn and out of the paddock permanently.

Also, if she is afraid to go beyond her normal boundaries, and she is attached to her pony, could you use both of those thought processes together? Could you take her and the pony out for a nice stroll together? It might not be a total training victory, but it would be a step in the right direction if it worked.
 
#6 ·
Oh spur! I forgot to mention, yes I tried that. I backed her very aggressively toward the gate and watched her keep trying to face the gate and she couldn't tell whether she was more afraid of me or the gate - I saw the explosion about to happen. She has NEVER reared or acted aggressively - I nipped that in the bud the first few days I had her. But I could see her thinking about it because she was feeling so trapped, so I quickly started lunging her around me, tightly and trying to back her again - rinse and repeat.


Holy CRAP Celeste! I feel like a moron! We couldn't do that at the rescue because none of the horses were sound or sane enough to get out of her way if she were to explode or something - didn't want two crazed broken horses. So I had ruled that option out and forgot I had it again now that we've moved!!! I will try to see if my fiance can lead the pony or get my friend who's pretty decent with horses. I could just hug you right now!!!!!
You're right, it's not a big victory, but I think once she starts venturing out and seeing that the world isn't filled with horse-eating monsters that she won't need the confidence of her pony. But she needs to get out to see that. :D Oh thank you!!
 
#8 ·
I know you do not want to listen, but tying her out as far away from her comfort zone as possible would do more than all of the fighting and fussing with her that you can do. It does MUCH MORE than help horses that are herd-bound. It is essential for any horse to change from 'reactive' to a thinking and 'responsive' horse.

I have watched some people fight their spooky and reactive horses for years and once they finally listened to me and tied them out until they got quiet and relaxed (and happy). They were amazed that they turned into different horses almost overnight.

As long as you are dealing with a reactive horse, you are just spinning your wheels. A reactive horse is not learning much and it is literally 'one step forward and two steps back'.

She needs to get 'settled' and comfortable away from her comfort zone. Right now, she has you trained. It will stay that way until you figure out that she must learn that the world beyond her comfort zone is not going to kill her.

If you have to, MAKE place to safely tie her. Sink two old telephone poles in the ground and stretch a nylon lariat rope high between them. Find a neighbor with a tree that will let you tie a rope from a tree limb. Put a high tie ring on the outside wall of a distant outbuilding. There is a place somewhere that will hold her until she figures out she should stop, relax and think. She is not unique. She is not going to be the only horse that cannot be tied up for a full day.
 
#9 ·
Cherie, honestly at this point I would try it. But she physically will not go beyond her comfort zone. There is no moving her beyond that.
Also I'm renting, so digging telephone poles into the ground I'm fairly sure isn't allowed on our lease. I have a tree I could tie her to, but there's no way to get her to the tree.
As of right now I can tie her to the O ring screwed into the side of the barn and she will stand there quietly for as long as I leave her there. I have never left her there unsupervised, but I've done it while I was in the barn fussing. I've never tied her to anything for more than an hour or so, because there's no need for her to stand there all that time. Her previous owner had one of those posts that's mad out of two short logs and one really long log laid on top of it. He had tied her up there for days at a time due to different situations. She does all that perfectly.
But she won't walk out to any trees I could tie her to. There's no place she's uncomfortable where I can both get her to and tie her up to. I wish it were that easy.


Celeste- you're right, I've always known that was a good way to teach new or nervous horses trails and the first day I had this mare we used a pony to get her out of her paddock, but coming back she had nearly run her over because a truck fired. So I couldn't do that anymore. But my pony a friend could lead and just be cautious to be well out of her way if needed. Thank you!
 
#11 ·
I just wanted to add... Cherie, I think you need to work on the way you word things. If you want someone to listen to you and honestly consider your opinions you should offer them as ideas or options that, in your experience, have worked.
But inferring that they're stupid or incapable or a bad horse person, just because they don't use your methods isn't a great way to make someone want to do what you suggest. Luckily I can filter through your insults and find the true suggestion underneath, then I think it over and decide whether it would or wouldn't work in my situation. But I have to say, all the insults don't make me want to consider you're ideas very much.
I'm referring specifically to things like "Right now, she has you trained. It will stay that way until you figure out that she must learn..." She has not got me trained, she's horrified, and I have never let her fear stop her. Regardless of if she's scared or falling apart inside I keep at her until she does what I say. In that there is NO part where SHE has ME trained. She's scared, she needs to get over it. I need to figure out how to get her out of it. Which is exactly what I was asking for suggestions on how to do, so don't act like I don't know that, that's what I'm asking for.

You have very good ideas and methods, but you make it so hard for people to want to try them because you attack us first.

Things like "I told you a long time ago what I would do with her but you rejected" and "
So, do whatever YOU think will work. I would just ask: 'How's it working?'"
Those are attacks that make people close their mind to you're very good suggestions. You have a GREAT deal of experience and are VERY knowledgeable on how to handle/train horses. I just wish your messages could come through, but it's hard to filter out the attacks.

Sorry if that was out of bounds, I just see that as an ongoing thing in many of your posts. I hope you take that constructively - not as a personal attack, as that's not how it's meant.
 
#12 ·
Cherie, she is broke to lead, she will lead all around where ever I ask her, the moment I ask her. It has taken us a GREAT deal of time but she will now lead safely and well. She is SCARED of leaving, no matter how broke to lead they are if they're scared of something they're not going to walk towards it without work and patience. If a horse is afraid of a tarp, being broke to lead isn't going to make them walk over it, NO desensitizing them to the tarp is going to make them walk over it.
 
#13 ·
I beg to differ. She is not properly broke to lead. You have let leading be optional. She is broke to follow when she wants to.

Leading should never be optional -- or -- only when you are going where a horse wants to any way.

Sorry -- she is NOT broke to lead. Heaven forbid that you ever have to quickly get her out of harm's way, like an approaching fire.
 
#14 ·
I repeat... She goes Wherever I want, Whenever I want, regardless of what she's doing - if there's a big freaking pile of apples that she's eating she will leave it. She leads where I tell her. She is SCARED of the outside. Just like most horses start out scared of a tarp. But I can't desensitize her to the whole world the way you desensitize a horse to a tarp. AGAIN - if they're afraid of something, no matter how well broke to lead they are they aren't going to go to it without at least a fight or a fussing.
You're making inferences from something you haven't even seen or really know about based on the fact she won't go outside her gate. She leads well, she doesn't lead well into something scary. She needs to learn how to handle scary situations. Maybe your idea would work, but I'm going to try Celeste's idea first, as it's less horrific than violently chasing my horse out her gate - running her to a tree- tying her to it- and praying she doesn't rip her head off trying to get away.

And again, you lead with an attack - you put a person's defenses up making them NOT want to listen or understand. Try leading with something positive sometime and see where it gets you ;)

How - in your way would you make this horse be broke to lead? Is your only suggestion that I chase her out to a tree and tie her to it? If me and whoever was helping me didn't get killed doing that I'd be amazed if my horse lived through it. She is afraid, building her confidence is a more ideal path than violently making her face the horrors she seems to think there are, until she gives up all hope to ever have any sense of safety again in her life.

What ELSE would you suggest? Do you have ANY other ideas or suggestions?
 
#16 ·
I wonder if you made the decision to go out that gate hers. If you started feeding that pony on the other side of that gate, and it looked like she was missing out on the party happenind out there, on the other side of the OPEN gate, I bet eventually she'd choose to walk herself right through it, on her own.
 
#17 ·
If she's not scared - then what? Why won't she leave? Are you now you're saying I can't tell a frightened horse from a naughty horse? If she simple doesn't want to leave, why not? She gets to eat grass out there and has to work in her paddock Why wouldn't she want to leave if not fear? You haven't seen her, but when she gets close to the gate her eyes are as wide as they get, her breathing is heavy and loud, she huffs and puffs and makes herself huge and backs away as fast as she can manage. If that's not a scared horse I don't know what is. She is horrified.

Do you have any other suggestions? I'm not above my horse getting their butt kicked for being bad, in fact she did get kicked more than a few times during that episode of hers today. She was listening and yielding every inch of her, spinning in circles so tight she nearly fell over. If that's not a responsive well trained horse I don't know what is. She did everything I asked despite being horrified. Except walking out the gate. She would yield her everything, she would lunge, she would back and turn and walk straight, but not through the gate. She's Afraid.

Unless you have a better suggestion that is actually possible without killing anyone - I'll go with Celeste's Idea.
 
#18 ·
Tiny, maybe, I don't think so though, as I do often graze the pony there (easier than mowing :P). She will hang out on the other side of the fence and watch him graze but won't go out. But I haven't tried doing it while the pony is there, only going out alone. I think she will go out if the pony is there, but I think because she feels safe with him. Unfortunately I don't know how to make her feel that safe with me too. I wish I did.

I have tried letting her out with just a long lunge line on and no force, me just sitting somewhere on the other side of the gate and her inside. She'll normally go as far as the lunge line lets her and stay there. But again didn't try it with the pony there to make her feel safe.

That's a very good idea though - it worked at our previous home I could open the gate to the next paddock over (multiple connecting paddocks) and I would just go eat or read in the other one. She would come in to be with me, then with any noise or breeze she'd gallop back to her stall, then meander her way back to me.
 
#19 ·
She has simply talked herself into being silly. You have gone along with it and reinforced that she should be fearful

She needs a strong leader that she has respect for and she would follow you off of a cliff if you were that person.

You have reinforced and played into her every little whim and fear. She will only get worse and worse. I think you are seeing that now.

With respect comes trust and obedience. She has zero respect for you.

I NEVER said to 'chase' her. I said a second person may have to haze her since she does not respect you or a halter enough to go where you want her to go.
 
#20 ·
I agree with Celeste's idea. I think letting her and the pony spend time in a paddock is good. I am not sure that I would want to tie a horse that sounds as intense on this issue as your mare is. I just think she could learn that if she leans back hard enough, long enough and fast enough that she can break her halter or lead rope. Which is not something you necessarily need. I think an element that might be at play is worry. I have a gelding that for some weird reason gets worried in the barn. Our barn is older and a bit narrow. The barn connects to the garage. If I get worried about it and think "oh no we are going to walk through the barn" he is much worse. If I think "stop being an idiot its the barn get over it" then he is better. The thing is that he is most nervous when he is looking into the garage, he turns around and see the grain and is like "Oh Snacks!". So, I tend to ignore him.

It almost sounds like your horse lacks confidence. She is buddy bonded, worries about being alone and seems a bit well flighty. I have a gelding thats the same way. It just means that I have to be extra confident. The real key might be convincing her and finding a way to build her confidence. Like, instead of saying today we are walking past the dumpster. Its today we are standing next to our stall. Next week we will stand three feet farther from our stall.

On an unrelated note, I believe you moved to MA recently and with the bugs being bad I would make sure your horses are vaccinated (I know they probably are) but the state is having a bit of a EEE and West Nile issue.
 
#21 ·
Ok - I'm going to, yet again, ignore the slighted insults, and carry on. How, aside from tying to a tree. Would you go about teaching a horse that you are a strong leader. And how have I played into her whim? I have never EVER let her get away with not going through the gate when I ask. She has ALWAYS gotten as far as I have asked of her in the end. I have NEVER let her win any battle, so I don't know how I reinforced her fear - but I'd love to be told! I'd love to know how I can be a better leader for my horse! Step by step method would be great.

As for chasing vs. hazing. When she first moved to our new house she was afraid of her stall and wouldn't go in. I lead her to it and tried to make her go through. After hours of doing everything I described in my OP she still wouldn't go in. But I wasn't going to let her win, I had my fiance go into her stall and stand behind her stall door and hold her lead rope as strong as he could. I went out - her whole body was tense, her tail was tucked a good 6 inches into her bum, she was trembling all over - but I wasn't going to let her win. I pushed her and commanded "walk on", she just trembled and was as hard as a rock and soaked in sweat from me working her butt off. But she was afraid of her stall. Yes you're right, she does talk herself into being afraid. But how am I to show her there's nothing to fear if she won't trust me? How am I to build her trust? I finally had to whack her butt with another rope. Nothing. She just trembled, couldn't get away, couldn't go forward. I continued whacking her and pushing her until she finally just jumped into her stall. I slammed the door shut behind her and left her in for 2 days. Now she loves her stall. What MORE can I do than that?!

If I were to try the same approach, out in the open, where there was no stall door to protect my fiance (who is NOT a horse person) she would have killed one of us. What more can I do? Please tell me what better I can do? I have got her yielding to every pressure I ever apply at the slightest amount. I don't even need to touch her I just step into her space and wiggle my fingers and she's moving away. What more can I do? Please tell me what to do and how I want to know. But trying to 'haze' her out to a tree will get us killed.
 
#23 ·
Rookie- thanks for the vote of confidence, you're right, going into it with the right attitude is important. Even if I'm acting confident I was certainly thinking "maybe I shouldn't try today" "it's not going to end well" and half way through "I should give up but I can't" and allll those thoughts that I'm sure she was picking up on no matter how hard I tried to push them down.

You're right she is NOT confident at all, she is definitely not alpha mare even in her herd of 1. I'm trying so hard to be the confident handler she needs, but I just don't know how to do better than what I have been. None of the trainers I hired really did either.
You're right about her learning she could break her halters, I've also known a horse who broke his neck being hard tied, so I'm extra wary.

As soon as I have someone who can handle my pony outside (he's fine, I just need someone who can get him out of the way if my mare does something) I'm going to try that. It won't hurt :P
You're right too about breaking it into small bits. Today we got most of her out the gate, next time I'm hoping to get her fully out the gate. The next time to the dumpster, next past it, and so on.
 
#24 ·
PunksTank, I'm just wondering if you have access to portable corral panels? If you had say 140 or 150 running feet worth you could put a corral at her gate, let her move her in to that on her own; then when she's comfortable move the corral a few feet further away and in a different location, etc. The reason I am suggesting this is that she almost sounds like she's got the equine equivalent of human agoraphobia. (And I don't think anyone will dispute this) She evidently has a very small comfort zone; so this may be a way to start increasing it without risk of life and limb to all involved.

I think it was Celeste that suggested following of the pony - also a good way to kick start ventures into the world.

Finally, don't give up. You have to extinquish this behaviour of hers and replace it with one you want. That takes persistence and patience in great great doses. Behaviours and habits (no matter what their basis) can be incredibly resilient (just ask someone who's trying to quit smoking or lose weight) but they can eventually be squashed. May be you have to go through this performance another 20 times and come the 21st time she's good to go.

Take care and good luck.
 
#25 ·
Celeste, We're renting so I don't think so. But where was that line of thought going? Out front is a busy road that I'd be afraid of. I'd also be afraid because the neighbors have a stallion. If she did decide to venture out xD If I owned the property it might have been a good idea to just fence the whole property with one big fence you're right, that would have been a great idea.
 
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