I need HELP >.< - Page 2

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I need HELP >.<

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    09-14-2012, 10:20 PM
I just wanted to add... Cherie, I think you need to work on the way you word things. If you want someone to listen to you and honestly consider your opinions you should offer them as ideas or options that, in your experience, have worked.
But inferring that they're stupid or incapable or a bad horse person, just because they don't use your methods isn't a great way to make someone want to do what you suggest. Luckily I can filter through your insults and find the true suggestion underneath, then I think it over and decide whether it would or wouldn't work in my situation. But I have to say, all the insults don't make me want to consider you're ideas very much.
I'm referring specifically to things like "Right now, she has you trained. It will stay that way until you figure out that she must learn..." She has not got me trained, she's horrified, and I have never let her fear stop her. Regardless of if she's scared or falling apart inside I keep at her until she does what I say. In that there is NO part where SHE has ME trained. She's scared, she needs to get over it. I need to figure out how to get her out of it. Which is exactly what I was asking for suggestions on how to do, so don't act like I don't know that, that's what I'm asking for.

You have very good ideas and methods, but you make it so hard for people to want to try them because you attack us first.

Things like "I told you a long time ago what I would do with her but you rejected" and "
So, do whatever YOU think will work. I would just ask: 'How's it working?'"
Those are attacks that make people close their mind to you're very good suggestions. You have a GREAT deal of experience and are VERY knowledgeable on how to handle/train horses. I just wish your messages could come through, but it's hard to filter out the attacks.

Sorry if that was out of bounds, I just see that as an ongoing thing in many of your posts. I hope you take that constructively - not as a personal attack, as that's not how it's meant.
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    09-14-2012, 10:22 PM
Cherie, she is broke to lead, she will lead all around where ever I ask her, the moment I ask her. It has taken us a GREAT deal of time but she will now lead safely and well. She is SCARED of leaving, no matter how broke to lead they are if they're scared of something they're not going to walk towards it without work and patience. If a horse is afraid of a tarp, being broke to lead isn't going to make them walk over it, NO desensitizing them to the tarp is going to make them walk over it.
    09-14-2012, 10:35 PM
Super Moderator
I beg to differ. She is not properly broke to lead. You have let leading be optional. She is broke to follow when she wants to.

Leading should never be optional -- or -- only when you are going where a horse wants to any way.

Sorry -- she is NOT broke to lead. Heaven forbid that you ever have to quickly get her out of harm's way, like an approaching fire.
    09-14-2012, 10:44 PM
I repeat... She goes Wherever I want, Whenever I want, regardless of what she's doing - if there's a big freaking pile of apples that she's eating she will leave it. She leads where I tell her. She is SCARED of the outside. Just like most horses start out scared of a tarp. But I can't desensitize her to the whole world the way you desensitize a horse to a tarp. AGAIN - if they're afraid of something, no matter how well broke to lead they are they aren't going to go to it without at least a fight or a fussing.
You're making inferences from something you haven't even seen or really know about based on the fact she won't go outside her gate. She leads well, she doesn't lead well into something scary. She needs to learn how to handle scary situations. Maybe your idea would work, but I'm going to try Celeste's idea first, as it's less horrific than violently chasing my horse out her gate - running her to a tree- tying her to it- and praying she doesn't rip her head off trying to get away.

And again, you lead with an attack - you put a person's defenses up making them NOT want to listen or understand. Try leading with something positive sometime and see where it gets you ;)

How - in your way would you make this horse be broke to lead? Is your only suggestion that I chase her out to a tree and tie her to it? If me and whoever was helping me didn't get killed doing that I'd be amazed if my horse lived through it. She is afraid, building her confidence is a more ideal path than violently making her face the horrors she seems to think there are, until she gives up all hope to ever have any sense of safety again in her life.

What ELSE would you suggest? Do you have ANY other ideas or suggestions?
    09-14-2012, 10:47 PM
Super Moderator
No, No, No! She is not as scared as she has you trained.

I give up.
    09-14-2012, 10:52 PM
I wonder if you made the decision to go out that gate hers. If you started feeding that pony on the other side of that gate, and it looked like she was missing out on the party happenind out there, on the other side of the OPEN gate, I bet eventually she'd choose to walk herself right through it, on her own.
    09-14-2012, 10:53 PM
If she's not scared - then what? Why won't she leave? Are you now you're saying I can't tell a frightened horse from a naughty horse? If she simple doesn't want to leave, why not? She gets to eat grass out there and has to work in her paddock Why wouldn't she want to leave if not fear? You haven't seen her, but when she gets close to the gate her eyes are as wide as they get, her breathing is heavy and loud, she huffs and puffs and makes herself huge and backs away as fast as she can manage. If that's not a scared horse I don't know what is. She is horrified.

Do you have any other suggestions? I'm not above my horse getting their butt kicked for being bad, in fact she did get kicked more than a few times during that episode of hers today. She was listening and yielding every inch of her, spinning in circles so tight she nearly fell over. If that's not a responsive well trained horse I don't know what is. She did everything I asked despite being horrified. Except walking out the gate. She would yield her everything, she would lunge, she would back and turn and walk straight, but not through the gate. She's Afraid.

Unless you have a better suggestion that is actually possible without killing anyone - I'll go with Celeste's Idea.
    09-14-2012, 10:58 PM
Tiny, maybe, I don't think so though, as I do often graze the pony there (easier than mowing :P). She will hang out on the other side of the fence and watch him graze but won't go out. But I haven't tried doing it while the pony is there, only going out alone. I think she will go out if the pony is there, but I think because she feels safe with him. Unfortunately I don't know how to make her feel that safe with me too. I wish I did.

I have tried letting her out with just a long lunge line on and no force, me just sitting somewhere on the other side of the gate and her inside. She'll normally go as far as the lunge line lets her and stay there. But again didn't try it with the pony there to make her feel safe.

That's a very good idea though - it worked at our previous home I could open the gate to the next paddock over (multiple connecting paddocks) and I would just go eat or read in the other one. She would come in to be with me, then with any noise or breeze she'd gallop back to her stall, then meander her way back to me.
    09-14-2012, 11:03 PM
Super Moderator
She has simply talked herself into being silly. You have gone along with it and reinforced that she should be fearful

She needs a strong leader that she has respect for and she would follow you off of a cliff if you were that person.

You have reinforced and played into her every little whim and fear. She will only get worse and worse. I think you are seeing that now.

With respect comes trust and obedience. She has zero respect for you.

I NEVER said to 'chase' her. I said a second person may have to haze her since she does not respect you or a halter enough to go where you want her to go.
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    09-14-2012, 11:10 PM
I agree with Celeste's idea. I think letting her and the pony spend time in a paddock is good. I am not sure that I would want to tie a horse that sounds as intense on this issue as your mare is. I just think she could learn that if she leans back hard enough, long enough and fast enough that she can break her halter or lead rope. Which is not something you necessarily need. I think an element that might be at play is worry. I have a gelding that for some weird reason gets worried in the barn. Our barn is older and a bit narrow. The barn connects to the garage. If I get worried about it and think "oh no we are going to walk through the barn" he is much worse. If I think "stop being an idiot its the barn get over it" then he is better. The thing is that he is most nervous when he is looking into the garage, he turns around and see the grain and is like "Oh Snacks!". So, I tend to ignore him.

It almost sounds like your horse lacks confidence. She is buddy bonded, worries about being alone and seems a bit well flighty. I have a gelding that's the same way. It just means that I have to be extra confident. The real key might be convincing her and finding a way to build her confidence. Like, instead of saying today we are walking past the dumpster. Its today we are standing next to our stall. Next week we will stand three feet farther from our stall.

On an unrelated note, I believe you moved to MA recently and with the bugs being bad I would make sure your horses are vaccinated (I know they probably are) but the state is having a bit of a EEE and West Nile issue.

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