It's Time for Horse Training to Evolve - Page 10
 
 

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It's Time for Horse Training to Evolve

This is a discussion on It's Time for Horse Training to Evolve within the Horse Training forums, part of the Training Horses category

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        10-13-2013, 10:54 PM
      #91
    Foal
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Cherie    
    Let's go back to my first illustration:Now, what kind of positive reinforcement would you use instead of the one I used which is to get out of the horse's way and let him lope on for a ways. Would you stop him to give him a treat? Would you reach down and pet on him? Just tell me how to 'reward' him other than stay out of his ribs and face? Please tell me what else a trainer can do when a horse gives the asked for response under saddle? Anything else I can think of to do would just confuse the horse and erase the 'relief' he got from my leaving him alone and getting out of his face and ribs while I let him lope with no pressure on him.

    There is nothing wrong with the reinforcement you used. The old pressure release as the reward is extremely effective positive reinforcement.

    Sometimes it seems like those raving about positive reinforcement did not really understand what they read.
         
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        10-13-2013, 11:07 PM
      #92
    Weanling
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by onuilmar    
    It most certainly is. The better wording is that positive reinforcement is anything that increases the likelihood of a behavior and negative reinforcement is anything the reduces the likelihood of a behavior.
    both positive and negative reinforcement increase the likelihood of a behaviour. The positive and negative only determine whether you added something or removed something to achieve that increased likelihood.

    Quote:
    And release is a positive reinforcer and a primary one to boot
    release is a negative reinforcer. You have released (i.e. Removed, subtracted, negative) something, which has served to reinforce (increase the likelihood of) a behaviour.

    Quote:
    But that is the definition of positive reinforcement: ANYTHING that increases the likelihood of behavior. Negative reinforcement extinguishes behavior.
    unfortunately not. The definition of reinforcement is anything that increases behaviour, yes. But that also applies to negative reinforcement. What extinguishes behaviour is positive or negative punishment.

    Reinforcement strengthens behaviour
    Punishment reduces behaviour
    Positive suggests that you've ADDED something
    Negative suggests that you've REMOVED something.
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        10-13-2013, 11:19 PM
      #93
    Trained
    In the non-'professional behaviorist' world, positive reinforcement is is something they like so they will want to do it again, and negative reinforcement is something they dislike, so they won't want to do it again. Since I'm posting on the Internet and not writing a paper on how to adjust the psychological make-up of the horse, I'll feel free to use the terms in their common sense.

    Squeezing with my legs is a CUE. I end the cue when the horse obeys. If the horse does not obey, I give a stronger cue. I give increasingly stronger cues until the horse decides to do things my way. Once they do it my way, I leave them alone - which is a positive to horses. Since there is a sequence, the horse decides how light the cue is. If they like leaving the arena too much, I make leaving less fun and staying there more attractive.

    Is that positive or negative? I don't care. It works for me and my horses view it as fair. Since horse & rider are content, I probably won't evolve beyond it.
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        10-14-2013, 01:52 AM
      #94
    Trained
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by christopher    
    both positive and negative reinforcement increase the likelihood of a behaviour.... release is a negative reinforcer. ... etc
    Thank you! I agree that I think the major part of this 'debate' is due to misunderstanding. I only read the first page of this thread & then ones after mine. I tried to explain the *behavioural* definition, as I've done a number of times before, but frustratingly people don't seem to get;
    Positive = addition
    Negative = subtraction
    Reinforcement = strengthening a behaviour
    Punishment = weakening a behaviour

    ....perhaps if we continue to repeat ourselves enough....

    I think the other thing that causes mass disagreement on the subject is that people who don't understand the *principles* well enough seem to get hung up on treats and clickers as being necessary to using +R in training, & that negative reinforcement/punishment is 'not allowed' for anyone who uses +R. & that +R trainers necessarily don't do discipline. It doesn't have to be an 'either/or' & IMO the whole 'spectrum' of reinforcement & punishment is valuable & valid in training.
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        10-14-2013, 09:10 AM
      #95
    Teen Forum Moderator
    This is late, but just in reply to loosie, I've had her scoped for ulcers and while I believe chronic stress STARTED her cribbing, she's been doing it since she lost mama as a 2 month old and never stopped. She's fat, healthy, has a balanced diet (she had a blood panel a few months ago to make sure she wasn't lacking on anything), PLENTY of hay to eat, and horses to live with. Theoretically she has no reason to crib, she just does. It started as a coping mechanism and now its just what she does when she's bored to get the endorphins it releases for her. Believe me, I've tried to get her to stop in every way I know how!

    And since that paragraph was of no use to this thread, I'd also like to mention that my mini mare is the in the 'don't touch me' group. She has a HUGE work ethic and is honestly a pain in the butt if she isn't given a job to do, but give her a job and she's literally a different horse. If I go to groom her or pet on her, she tolerates me because she knows I'm the lead mare and I can do what I want to- but she always has a look of pure torture on her face. When I bring her working harness out (she drives, and very well for a 5 year old if I do say so myself) she lights up and if she has opposable thumbs I'm pretty sure she'd harness herself. She already practically bridles herself!

    I actually did try, when I was younger and much more na´ve, to teach her with treats. Back then she was a biter and a kicker. She BARELY tolerated me, and had a terrible attitude about everything. If she trotted nicely in hand, or stood tied, I'd give her a treat (by hand >.> stupidstupidstupid) and praise her. All I got was pinned ears and bared teeth, or her going out of her way to nip me while I was handing her the treat. She felt like she was in charge of the 'treat dispenser' and if she threatened me, treats came out. It took me being kicked once (double barreled in the thigh) and bitten three times to snap to my senses and realize what I was doing to my power hungry horse. As soon as I made the changes, stopped feeding her by hand/rewarding with cuddles and treats, and I just offered her stillness as a reward, her attitude did a 180 and we've never looked back. She hasn't even given me an ugly look in half a year (which is saying something with a mare named Sour!) and hasn't offered to bite or kick in over two.
         
        10-14-2013, 09:47 AM
      #96
    Super Moderator
    While you can't cure a bad attitude with treats - the horse would only see the treat as a reward for bad behavior - they don't understand the context of bribery in the sense of 'I will give you this cookie if you don't bite me'
    However blaming treats for causing bad behavior isn't right either as that lies with the person who is giving the treats, when its appropriate to give treats as a reward, how they treat unacceptable behavior and what ground rules they apply and enforce
    As for giving a horse affection - acceptance of that will differ from one horse to another, exactly in the same way as it does with people. These two horses of mine in this pic are always grooming and scratching each other, they also love being stroked and scratched by humans and will seek that attention out - neither are rude or pushy but both have always been in homes where they were treated as pets and not just work or competition horses. The horse standing off to the side dislikes other horses getting close to her and was very negative and distrustful around humans when she arrived - she now enjoys being around us as much as her companions do.
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        10-14-2013, 10:04 AM
      #97
    Showing
    When I first got my gelding 30 yrs ago, he loved the trails, always seeming to want to investigate. Our trails never formed loops to ride back the way you came. Even the main road did this. On our first ride he didn't want to come home, which surprised me. A bit of a scuffle ensued, just general orneriness. Finally he resigned himself to turn back and walked with the brakes on. I loaded a pocket with carrots and the next time he wouldn't turn for home, the moment he was facing the right direction he got a treat, then for the first step, etc. This had to be done for many rides then gradually weaned off the treats.
         
        10-14-2013, 10:12 AM
      #98
    Teen Forum Moderator
    I definitely do not blame the treats for my mare's bad behavior. That was all me and the people who has owned her before me. We never gave her boundaries, or if we did, they weren't firm enough to matter. I also had the 'I don't want to hurt my poor baby or mentally scar her' attitude since she HAD come from a home where she was unfairly treated, and I forgot that she was a horse and that all I was doing was teaching her that if she acted out she wouldn't be punished, if she did something even minutely right she'd get food- and she could be ugly about taking it from me too.
    loosie and Golden Horse like this.
         
        10-14-2013, 11:35 AM
      #99
    Foal
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by christopher    
    both positive and negative reinforcement increase the likelihood of a behaviour. The positive and negative only determine whether you added something or removed something to achieve that increased likelihood.



    Release is a negative reinforcer. You have released (i.e. Removed, subtracted, negative) something, which has served to reinforce (increase the likelihood of) a behaviour.



    Unfortunately not. The definition of reinforcement is anything that increases behaviour, yes. But that also applies to negative reinforcement. What extinguishes behaviour is positive or negative punishment.

    Reinforcement strengthens behaviour
    Punishment reduces behaviour
    Positive suggests that you've ADDED something
    Negative suggests that you've REMOVED something.
    I stand by what I said. Positive increases the likelihod and negative reduces the likelihood. That is why shocks are called negative reinforcement and the removal is positive reinforcement.

    And the withholding of positive reinforcement that is expected is also negative reinforcement.
         
        10-14-2013, 11:49 AM
      #100
    Foal
    Negative reinforcers are aversive. They extinguish one behavior while increasing the likelihood of another.

    So while the pressure release rewards the desired behavior, it also reduces the undesired behavior. Negative reinforcers are negative consequences.
         

    Tags
    horse training, how to train horses, positive reinforcement

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