It's Time for Horse Training to Evolve - Page 12
 
 

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It's Time for Horse Training to Evolve

This is a discussion on It's Time for Horse Training to Evolve within the Horse Training forums, part of the Training Horses category

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        10-14-2013, 09:10 PM
      #111
    Super Moderator
    Though he has studied under many trainers Honza Blaha was inspired by Parelli and in 2002 spent 2 years on the PP Success with Horses Tour. He credits his turnaround with his horse Gaston to things he learnt from Parelli
    More Blaha
    It is possible to carry a whip as an extension of your arm - not all people who carry whips use them for punishment or 'tapping' the horse.
    People like Blaha and Hempfling achieve their relationships with horses by being passive dominants - which is how the true alpha mare rules. They are the herd leaders that other horses respect but not fear in the way that they might the herd bully - the leader has to be trusted as the herd needs to follow them not run from them
         
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        10-14-2013, 09:17 PM
      #112
    Trained
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Endiku    
    ...not clicker training and cookies.
    Oh I have no idea if he uses those type techniques *as well*, though I'm betting he uses lots of positive reinforcement(actual behavioural definition) of some form or another. Perhaps those whips he uses are for sticking bits of apple onto!

    Quote:
    Do you personally know that he was inspired by Parelli?
    No, I don't know him personally, or ever met him, or even had the pleasure of seeing him & Gaston in the flesh. I can't recall if he was actually a PNH instructor, but he had a lot more to do with Parelli than just being inspired, so far as I remember.

    Quote:
    Is this an example of one kind of evolution?

    Or is it just the point of the thread to just discuss the meaning of words and how they are used in different regions of the country?
    Yes, I feel that HB is indeed, absolutely one *desirable*(Maybe in more ways than one but don't think I've seen him without his hat!) eg of the 'evolution of horsemanship'. But as it seems always happens in this sort of thread, people seem to get hung up about an 'either-or' approach & much of this, IMO, comes down to confusion of terms. It seems that if we're discussing behaviourist theory & using behaviourist terminology, colloquial meanings should be left out & people need to understand the formal meanings.
         
        10-14-2013, 09:50 PM
      #113
    Trained
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by jaydee    
    It is possible to carry a whip as an extension of your arm - not all people who carry whips use them for punishment or 'tapping' the horse.
    Yup, I use a whip/stick as an extension of my arm, INCLUDING for tapping/pushing on bits that I can't reach with my arm. Aside from 'purist' type +R trainers who may use sticks only as targets, I can't think of any egs, or reasons for whips/sticks used without ANY punishment(meant behaviourally, as being ANY undesirable stimuli). Whether or not you hit, tap, push, or just gesture in a pushing/tapping kind of way with a stick/arm, it's still something the horse learns to yield to, because it's not a desirable action. And in most cases(dare I assume HB too), the horse learns to do this reliably because if he ignores it, less desirable things happen.
         
        10-14-2013, 10:01 PM
      #114
    Yearling
    The original post makes me think of the saying “there is no zeal like that of the newly converted”.
         
        10-14-2013, 10:23 PM
      #115
    Yearling
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by loosie    
    Yup, I use a whip/stick as an extension of my arm, INCLUDING for tapping/pushing on bits that I can't reach with my arm. Aside from 'purist' type +R trainers who may use sticks only as targets, I can't think of any egs, or reasons for whips/sticks used without ANY punishment(meant behaviourally, as being ANY undesirable stimuli). Whether or not you hit, tap, push, or just gesture in a pushing/tapping kind of way with a stick/arm, it's still something the horse learns to yield to, because it's not a desirable action. And in most cases(dare I assume HB too), the horse learns to do this reliably because if he ignores it, less desirable things happen.

    I have no intention to go near terminology at all as the "words" have too many meanings even among the different trainers.

    Is it possible (in your mind ) for me to guide you down a walkway or path with a stick ,staff, arm extension,etc without threatening harm or pain?
    anndankev and boots like this.
         
        10-14-2013, 10:40 PM
      #116
    Teen Forum Moderator
    Maybe I'm just slightly messed up, but even if someone swore to me that they would not touch me with a stick, I'd move away from it because I'd be worried that I would be hit, even if only accidentally. It really is just how my brain operates. I would think its about the same with horses.
         
        10-14-2013, 10:52 PM
      #117
    Yearling
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Endiku    
    Maybe I'm just slightly messed up, but even if someone swore to me that they would not touch me with a stick, I'd move away from it because I'd be worried that I would be hit, even if only accidentally. It really is just how my brain operates. I would think its about the same with horses.
    Is that a fear or apprehension?

    Does a twirling rope have the same effect on you?

    Do you have any way to be guided without verbal cues?
         
        10-14-2013, 10:59 PM
      #118
    Teen Forum Moderator
    I don't know. I fear being hit by it and it hurting. I'm the same way with anything. I think I'd be classified as a 'spooky' horse. LOL. So yes, I'm the same way with rope.

    There are plenty of ways to get me to move without a verbal cue, but not without at least a little nervousness that something will hurt... except maybe with firm pressure. If I didn't care about the consequence of it touching/hitting me, I wouldn't move at all.

    I'm not completely sure what you're trying to build up to here, though.
         
        10-14-2013, 11:09 PM
      #119
    Yearling
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Endiku    
    I don't know. I fear being hit by it and it hurting. I'm the same way with anything. I think I'd be classified as a 'spooky' horse. LOL. So yes, I'm the same way with rope.

    There are plenty of ways to get me to move without a verbal cue, but not without at least a little nervousness that something will hurt... except maybe with firm pressure. If I didn't care about the consequence of it touching/hitting me, I wouldn't move at all.

    I'm not completely sure what you're trying to build up to here, though.

    You are showing that all people .....and horse have different reactions to the stimulus around them.

    I would not be be threatened by you holding an object and directing me with the object.

    I sometimes have students go through a lesson where they are asked to direct another person non verbally (and without touching) through a series of maneuvers using body language and it is amazing what happens.
         
        10-14-2013, 11:34 PM
      #120
    Foal
    Here's my take. Using spurs, shanked bits, crops, etc. as tools to refine the aids is not wrong or abusive in any way. Used properly they do not scare or hurt the horse. If you don't want to use them, or don't need them for your horse. Great. There are VERY many good riders out there that really do train properly and have their horse's best interest in mind. However, I do agree there are some rotten trainers out there. Either due to ignorance or blind pursuit of winnings.
    Take for example my experience the other day:
    I love western pleasure. The horse moving naturally, but well collected. They look content and exhibit lovely movement. Then there was the woman I saw at my barn the other day. Her horse was beautiful but she rode him around with his head low and nose tucked as far to his chest as possible. His lope was so slow and fake it looked like he was severely lame and he had his hindquarters twisted to the inside to compensate. If he tried to lift/move his head at all she jerked sharply on his big bit. His ears were back and his tail swished violently the entire ride. It was quite disturbing to watch, actually. But this is not training. This is abuse. Stemmed from ignorance or a "short-cut" attitude, I don't know. But I do agree these people need to be educated.
         

    Tags
    horse training, how to train horses, positive reinforcement

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