It's Time for Horse Training to Evolve - Page 13 - The Horse Forum

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post #121 of 176 Old 10-15-2013, 01:02 AM
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Originally Posted by Marecare View Post
Is it possible (in your mind ) for me to guide you down a walkway or path with a stick ,staff, arm extension,etc without threatening harm or pain?
Of course, but who's saying undesireable stimuli necessarily means threatening harm or pain with the horse either?? Although it sounds like you also feel even tapping or such is too fearful/painful, which I don't. If I didn't understand your language or gestures(and I wasn't 'messed up' like Endiku), how would you go about teaching me to respond to your body/stick language?

Oh & I don't get why you brought it up, but I'm personally more 'messed up' by someone swinging a rope/stockwhip near me than tapping/poking me with a stick(& IME so are horses).... seen too many people take themselves out with those 'tools' to stand too close!
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post #122 of 176 Old 10-15-2013, 09:16 AM
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Most of the slapping I do (when warranted) to give my horses a sharp reminder that they've crossed the line is with my hand - I doubt it hurts them at all so the bulk of the reprimand actually comes from the tone of my voice
They don't fear my hand though any more than they fear a rope or a whip that's being used in a non threatening manner
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post #123 of 176 Old 10-15-2013, 10:32 AM
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Originally Posted by loosie View Post
Of course, but who's saying undesireable stimuli necessarily means threatening harm or pain with the horse either?? Although it sounds like you also feel even tapping or such is too fearful/painful, which I don't. If I didn't understand your language or gestures(and I wasn't 'messed up' like Endiku), how would you go about teaching me to respond to your body/stick language?

By taking the TIME to understand and learn the particulars of the person or horse so that I would not upset them like Endiku indicated.

Too many times a person approaches a new horse with what worked on the last horse as the indicator of how all horses learn.

All people do not learn the same way so why should anything else?

Oh & I don't get why you brought it up, but I'm personally more 'messed up' by someone swinging a rope/stockwhip near me than tapping/poking me with a stick(& IME so are horses).... seen too many people take themselves out with those 'tools' to stand too close!

I brought it up to point out that what some call "stimuli)is not always an appropriate "teaching tool" at all.

I might completely unnerve some people by wearing a firearm on my hip but it would mean very little to a horse.

That is just one example for you to consider.

"The greatest strength is gentleness."
- Iroquois Proverb
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post #124 of 176 Old 10-15-2013, 02:14 PM
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How do you like your Lipizzan? A Lipizzan lover and owner I met said that riding hers was like riding a cross between a pogo stick and a giant spring. She said their upward motion was unbelievable.
Haha! I haven't ridden him yet. I kind of jumped way ahead of myself and bought him because he was there. We're both in training right now. He is quite the mover, though. Whenever he starts, be it on the longe line or out in the pasture, everyone just kind of stops and stares with that look on their face.
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post #125 of 176 Old 10-15-2013, 05:21 PM
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By taking the TIME to understand and learn the particulars of the person or horse so that I would not upset them like Endiku indicated.

Too many times a person approaches a new horse with what worked on the last horse as the indicator of how all horses learn.

All people do not learn the same way so why should anything else?
Oh, so you're assuming no one else has considered or done this?? I asked how you'd *teach* someone to follow your gestures, not just how you'd try to understand them better. I just don't get what the point of stating the obvious about firearms & the likes has to do with anything really.
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post #126 of 176 Old 10-15-2013, 06:01 PM
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Oh, so you're assuming no one else has considered or done this?? I asked how you'd *teach* someone to follow your gestures, not just how you'd try to understand them better. I just don't get what the point of stating the obvious about firearms & the likes has to do with anything really.

Maybe you are not interested.

Carry on.......

"The greatest strength is gentleness."
- Iroquois Proverb
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post #127 of 176 Old 10-15-2013, 08:44 PM
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^Huh?? Interested in what? You answering my question?? I'm a bit lost now. Tho I'm not that 'interested' that you *seem* to be assuming that anyone who uses punishment/-R does not 'take the TIME' or understand the situation/animal.

Anyway... I think Endiku's eg of any form of stick pointing being a fearful aversive for them a good eg of how different... animals see different stimuli. Depending on how it's done, a nervous horse - & even an Endiku - could also come to see a stick used in a certain way as a pleasant, desirable thing. Another eg would be patting a horse as a reward - I don't doubt some horses actually like it, but many IMO just tolerate it & some find it offensive - effectively a punishment.

What I'm most 'interested' in is that people understand what +/- reinforcement & punishment actually means, how animals learn from them and to use those 'tools' effectively, with understanding, consistency & judiciously. IOW I don't believe positive punishment is necessarily bad at all, any more than I believe +R without understanding is necessarily the right answer.

I believe that (generally?) there is far too little understanding & too much punishment used(whether it includes fear & pain or not) & I think more +R would be valuable. And focussing more on *reinforcing* 'Good' behaviour rather than 'correcting' Wrongs. I also think that the 'gulf' doesn't just flow one way, but that there are a lot of misguided people that 'baby' & 'spoil' their horses & refuse to discipline, without understanding of what they're actually teaching. IMPO those that want to do away with -R & +P all together are 'cutting off their noses' unnecessarily just as much as those who refuse to entertain the thought of +R.
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post #128 of 176 Old 10-15-2013, 10:59 PM
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I doubt if I could tell correctly which of the +R -R +P -P technique(s) were used with any accuracy.

Don't most things fall into 2 categories? One each of a (+) or (-) R; and of a (+) or (-) P

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post #129 of 176 Old 10-31-2013, 07:50 PM
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What Amazes Me

What amazes me is with all the information available on the net, in books and DVD's that there are still people convinced to use nothing but negative reinforcement. This is pure ignorance and lack of caring for a dumb animal. Whips, spurs, and bits are tools. There are correct ways to use them and incorrect ways. Most of the time I see them using old methods harshly on horses. From the beginner to Olympic riders. From beginners to professionals. English and Western, Saddle Seat, Racing, Endurance. I've gotten numb to their abuses and sadly have to walk away shaking my head because I can see the horse would perform much better if the riders or owners would take some suggestions.

I've taught riding for over 40 years. Yes, my methods have changed because I care about the animals and the people. I have always wanted to do the right thing for the horse. I want the horse to be safe and the people as well.

I've studied riding and horses for eons. I'm still learning. But the ignorance out there still today amazes me.
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post #130 of 176 Old 11-01-2013, 11:42 AM
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I find this to be a very interesting thread and like many, the majority of answers here are based on perception and once own understanding.

My general rule to kindness is knowledge. I was born and raised in Germany and trained as a Bereiter FN. I trained with a Diploma Trainer as well as with the previous chef d'équipe of the German Dressage team. I also spend some time in Britain, mainly with Event riders.

My professional journey began in 1987 and it ended in 2001 when I decided that I was no longer willing to ride "other peoples" horses for money. It is not the tools we use that are unkind, it is those that do not understand how to apply them.

Teaching a Baby horse to accept a Saddle and Bridle and teaching it slowly, applying the training scale and therefore never asking the impossible is not only kind but will make for a horse that has a long and healthy life since it has been build up in a species appropriate manner. It learns to respond to the riders aids by being guided through body language and give and take.

Using this knowledge to skip some steps on the scale in order to be able to rush this training would be negative enforcement. This is often applied to horses that are prepared for auction, just to use one example but even with big bits and spurs it really does not need to be negative at all.
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horse training , how to train horses , positive reinforcement

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