It's Time for Horse Training to Evolve - Page 16 - The Horse Forum
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post #151 of 176 Old 11-03-2013, 10:47 AM
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The difference between being a bully and being a leader is being 1) fair, 2) consistent, 3) proportionate, and 4) timely. Horses - at least, mine - have a strong sense of fairness. They despise bullies. But they also have no use for weaklings.

Give Mia a whack without just cause, and you will soon have a fight on your hands. Give one WITH just cause, and she'll say, "OK, I know, I know...".
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"People can teach us the rules, but only horses can teach us the art of riding."
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post #152 of 176 Old 11-04-2013, 09:21 AM
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The horse, yes needs it's bounds like every creature to move in.
You got to act as a translator for the cultural differences from human to horse!
Most methods today brag about being fast and get results, that includes most new horse gurus...
Seldom you hear a trainer brag it will take a long time to develop the trust you need to really train your horse. Yes I can teach lectures, exercises very fast and effective. And most of the natural horsemanship people aren't that positive at all.
However they are effective!
and this is why they are so popular.... any good horse person knows it takes time... Yes I can swing myself within a few hours on a horse, maybe even sit on his back around the arena without any problems for the first three times, oh impressive... no!!! Not at all, the real hard part is, to have your horses trust after it finds his balance, to have the horse willing to work through the first sore muscles and not just buck you of before it gets hard....

But I see a new trend , a trend where people want things fast and easy, and skip the hard and tedious basic/foundation work, to see results!

And most methods will give results, and they are easy...

but 'Easy' isn't always right!!!
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"Der beste Reitlehrer ist unter dem Sattel" Max Walther
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post #153 of 176 Old 11-04-2013, 10:41 AM
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I didn't read the entirety of each post on this thread, but I have to agree with Loosie on at least one point that she has made... I think we are investing too much in what we think horses "know".

Positive and negative reinforcement are both used by knowledgable horse people. It's just about knowing how to appropriately use them.

The sensitivity of the internet baffles me.
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post #154 of 176 Old 11-04-2013, 09:41 PM
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One name comes to mind when I think of horse training - Parelli. Parelli Natural horsemanship is how I train my horses - it's the best thing that I've done for me & my horses. It will blow your mind with the results. It doesn't matter what you use your horse for - leisure, dressage, barrel racing etc..... it works! :)
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post #155 of 176 Old 11-04-2013, 10:43 PM
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^^ Parelli is a subject for an entire other thread...in fact, many of them. Let's just say that if I saw an ad for a Parelli-trained horse, I'd move on.

"People can teach us the rules, but only horses can teach us the art of riding."
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post #156 of 176 Old 11-05-2013, 02:06 AM
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^Oh I dunno. Having started learning about training many... god, is it really decades??... ago with Parelli, I've moved well away from it. But I'm inclined to think that it's the fanatics that 'follow the rules' without understanding or exception in whatever 'discipline' or 'brand' that are the problem.
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post #157 of 176 Old 11-05-2013, 04:30 AM
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Haflinger writes In German "Der beste Reitlehrer etc..." -" the best riding instructor is under the saddle."
yes indeed and most new riders don't appreciate the truth of that statement.
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post #158 of 176 Old 11-05-2013, 05:29 AM
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All training seems to now be cast as positive or negative.
Those that think using a whip, spurs or anything to reprimand a horse is wrong and often think is cruelty, have rarely ever really intermingled with many horse.

I am all for easy or hard, if you do this there is a consequence. However, there are times when force is needed.

If a foal turns is backside to me to kick then it will get a hard slap, with my hand or, anything to hand, to make it realise that if it even thinks of kicking out at me it will hurt them. One dose of their own medicine is usually enough for them to never kick at a person again.

A horse that say, is difficult to clip and will not allow the clippers on it can be taught with many hours of so called positive training or, the person doing the clipping can get very cross and go into attack mode and make that horse think it is going to die. Not by beating it up but, by being very dominant. Then when the horse shows submission, start clipping with no problems.

When teaching in a riding school I always had a lunge whip to hand. The horses never bothered about it. I could crack it around and they wouldn't flinch but, if they were even thinking about doing something untoward, they knew I would use it. What made them accept was that it was fair.

I had a big warm blood mare come to me in an emergency. The man who delivered her warned me that she was 'evil' and just as likely to attack when she wanted.
I turned her out with two of my brood mares. When I went to feed them that afternoon, I stopped the ATV outside the gate. My mares were stood back knowing that I would drive across the field to their feed buckets, the new mare, as I went to unlatch the gate, charged, ears flat back, punching with her front legs and mouth wide open. There was no doubt in my mind that she wanted to do me serious damage.

I got back on the ATV and returned to the stables. I picked up my rarely used twitch which was half a pitchfork handle, and returned to the gate.

My two were waiting patiently and when the mare charged again, I was ready and I hit her hard straight down the front of her face. I hurt her, I meant her to feel it. I was not angry, it was not in temper it was to teach her that if you want to hurt me I will hurt you back. I rarely ever hit a horse in the face.

She shot away and stood in the middle of the field. I drove in and across to the feeders. My two started to eat and the new mare stood back. I put her feed in a feeder and walked towards her. She ran away which told me that at least she had learned a lesson.
Next day she stood back and waited. I still couldn't catch her. I let her follow the other two into the barn and she went into a stable. She was very wary of me catching her in the stable but, it only took a minute. Once caught she was a bit grumpy and showed a few threats of biting and kicking but all it took was a poke with a finger and a growl to correct.
Just handling this mare told me that she was in need of adjustment, she had a build up of static electricity making her very ticklish. Once this was sorted she was happier to be groomed. Her feet were a mess and in need of a trim. When my farrier came a few days later I asked him to do her. He looked at her and started. She did think about messing but a verbal warning was enough and after the first front foot she stood like she should.

I spoke to the husband of the owner and asked if I could ride her, I was told she was very bad to rode and if a rider fell she would turn on them. She hadn't been ridden in 18 months.
I mounted her in the yard and took her into a field. At the gate she started to rear. I am not talking about a foot off the ground but, vertical ones. I just sat on her and did nothing. She was experienced at this and was not going to go over. She tired herself out and then went forward.
Boy oh boy, was that a horse and a half! I was getting all sorts of paces I was not expecting, she had been exceedingly well schooled for advanced dressage.
20 minutes and she was tired. To cool her I took her out to walk around the triangle, a road ride of just over a mile.
Now, that was interesting! She was so spooky, drains, leaves, road markings were all alien to her.

I rode her out every day, worked her twice a day when I could and she was a different horse. She was first to be caught, well mannered in the stables to the point that small children could go in with her.
I took her Fox Hunting and she almost died of fright when she saw hounds, but soon caught on to hat fun it was and, after popping a small set of rails on her and realising that she could jump, had no qualms about taking on the biggest hedges.

When the owner returned from hospital she was astounded at the change in the mare. I had her for about three months.
She had been bought as a 4 year old for a lot of money, trained for dressage and nothing else. I swear she had a mental breakdown and learned that attack stopped her twiddling in circles.
I sold the mare to go show jumping and her new owners have no problems whatsoever with her.

Now, those who do not believe such corrections are right have never had to deal with a horse like this. She would have been impossible to catch in a field, dangerous in a round pen and, if someone was going to only use 'positive', taken years, of ever, to bring her around.

I only ever hit her the once, it was perfectly timed and she knew exactly what it was for. Had I not done this hard correction then she would have been shot.

I consider what I odd as 'positive' - you attack me and I will be positive that you will regret it.
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post #159 of 176 Old 11-05-2013, 06:05 AM
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My early tutor in matters horsey, a man who earned his living by training horses for use by actors in the film industry, told me early on that if one was unlucky enough to meet with a dangerous horse, then chastisement was the only answer. Aggression by any horse towards humans was unacceptable.

Each scenario would be different but it was important that the horse learned very quickly that the rider or trainer or handler was the boss. One carefully considered sharp blow - designed to hurt but not maim might later save the human from injury. Biting, striking and rearing by the horse must be countered. The horse must respect its carer and rider.

However there is a difference between harsh chastisement and cruelty.

Personally I don't like to hurt a horse deliberately and I have found that my voice and an aggressive posture has been enough to put most of the horses which have needed "correction", in place. I have always taken into consideration the fact that sooner or later I have to put a bit in the horses's mouth. I aim to make a loyal servant of the horse and not to create an enemy biding its time for revenge.
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post #160 of 176 Old 11-05-2013, 07:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bsms View Post
^^ Parelli is a subject for an entire other thread...in fact, many of them. Let's just say that if I saw an ad for a Parelli-trained horse, I'd move on.

Yeah, y'know, I gotta agree with Loosie here, I learned from a dude who learned directly from Parelli years ago, he used to go to his place in the US and spend time with the guy, back in the early to mid 80s. And so much of what he taught me completely contradicts much, if not most, of what the Parelli drones all go on about. I guess he could have changed much of it over the years ( good possibility given the emergence of all of this right/left brain stuff), or, it could have been filtered by my friend, who learned a fair wedge of californio bridle stuff too, or the Parelli drones could just misunderstand a heap of it and only cherry pick the nice fluffy stuff (which is my main guess). After all, how many of them go on about the evils of spurs and other “torture devices”? Hell, I have the Parelli book, there are photos of him riding around with spurs on.
I have the impression that it appeals to a certain group of people and many of them tend to drag it down to a laughable level.
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