It's Time for Horse Training to Evolve - Page 6 - The Horse Forum
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post #51 of 176 Old 10-12-2013, 10:47 AM
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I've only got 3 horses, but they don't spend even 1% of their time actually touching each other. Standing within 12 inches of each other? They'll do that for hours, and often within 6 inches. They couldn't stand that close to each other for as many hours as they do without actually touching each other unless the physical contact was in some way inappropriate to their sensibilities.

The only physical contacts my mare seems to really accept are 1) head rubs at the end of the ride, which I think is a learned behavior telling her work is done and feeding is about to start, and 2) having her mane fussed with. She will stand as long as I want if I'm untangling her mane. If I rub her shoulder, withers or hip, she accepts it for about 5 seconds and then moves away. The only exception is for an occasional itch that she cannot reach.

... Energy is an admirable thing, but the energy of stupidity seldom avails much..." - On Seats and Saddles (1868), Francis Dwyer, Major of Hussars (light cavalry)
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post #52 of 176 Old 10-12-2013, 10:57 AM
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I find that young horses on a hack will reach out and touch others with their noses for reassurance and others will move into others almost for a physical check on those that are around them, of course we steer them so they do not walk into each other, but horses as a herd are very aware of touching and it's uses.
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post #53 of 176 Old 10-12-2013, 11:06 AM
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^^ Your horses may. I can only speak for mine. Mine do NOT touch another horse on the trail, or offer to, regardless of their level of discomfort. I have no idea if it is a breed thing, or if I just happened to acquire some anti-social horses.
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... Energy is an admirable thing, but the energy of stupidity seldom avails much..." - On Seats and Saddles (1868), Francis Dwyer, Major of Hussars (light cavalry)
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post #54 of 176 Old 10-12-2013, 11:09 AM
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^^ Your horses may. I can only speak for mine. Mine do NOT touch another horse on the trail, or offer to, regardless of their level of discomfort. I have no idea if it is a breed thing, or if I just happened to acquire some anti-social horses.
Maybe it is because we ride very close next to each other with young horses on our busy roads?
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post #55 of 176 Old 10-12-2013, 11:28 AM
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No...we ride pretty close to each others at times here in Arizona, either because we are on a narrow path thru the cactus, or because we're next to a road. Our roads have less traffic than the average road in the UK, but we do regularly squeeze together to avoid traffic. If Mia is nervous about something, one of the other horses will take the lead, but she NEVER tries to touch them while they are passing inches away. Nor do they offer contact.

My horses are pretty scrupulous about not touching each other, apart from a bit of grooming once in a great while.

... Energy is an admirable thing, but the energy of stupidity seldom avails much..." - On Seats and Saddles (1868), Francis Dwyer, Major of Hussars (light cavalry)
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post #56 of 176 Old 10-12-2013, 12:30 PM
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Anyway, I am really enjoying the book, as my first horse is a Lipizzan :) I think you would too.
How do you like your Lipizzan? A Lipizzan lover and owner I met said that riding hers was like riding a cross between a pogo stick and a giant spring. She said their upward motion was unbelievable.
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post #57 of 176 Old 10-12-2013, 12:59 PM
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I think horses can be conditioned to accept petting and hugging and messing with them, but I also think they would be happier if you just left them alone.
Mr Gibbs



Approves.

He is a no nonsense sort of guy, doesn't get being fussed with at all!
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post #58 of 176 Old 10-12-2013, 01:28 PM
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My mustang Hercules agrees with Mr. Gibbs- so not into the baby talk, cuddly stuff.
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post #59 of 176 Old 10-12-2013, 01:45 PM
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Well, with names like Mr. Gibbs & Hercules, what did you expect?

... Energy is an admirable thing, but the energy of stupidity seldom avails much..." - On Seats and Saddles (1868), Francis Dwyer, Major of Hussars (light cavalry)
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post #60 of 176 Old 10-12-2013, 05:52 PM
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Try to keep an open mind - that's all

CRK I really like your post and I completely get what youíre talking about. Letís keep an open mind to new and more tactful ways of doing things. I was very sceptical about positive reinforcement training (like many of the posters here). But I have to admit that having recently started working with my 9yr old TB gelding using positive reinforcement training (clicker training) Iím truly amazed at how different his motivation is when compared to the more traditional method of negative reinforcement. He responds very well to negative reinforcement training, but with positive reinforcement his responses and willingness quite literally has to be seen to be believed. I canít tell you how fun that is. Itís like having 2 different horses.

As an example of the difference in the horseís motivation, this horse is easy to catch. He makes himself available to be caught (which I expect of all my horses). He doesnít run away, but always allows me to approach. Thanks to negative reinforcement training he understands very clearly that this is the easiest option for him. However with positive reinforcement training, he now comes to me no matter how far away he is and then takes himself to the roundpen gate to wait for me to arrive. If Iím working with another horse in the roundpen, he waits patiently nearby in the hope he will get a turn too.
It opened my eyes big time and I thought this type of training was below me and indulgent. Iíve since decided to use both negative and positive reinforcement training. Is he pushy around the treats? If I donít immediately correct it, of course he might give that a go. One correction and no sign of being offered a treat soon fixes that. Heís not stupid: he gets back with the program quick smart. But there are horseís who try pushing humans around whoís handlers donít carry treats and never have, yet they still do it.

Personally Iím a little frustrated by those who dismiss positive reinforcement training as unworthy of being a useful (and safe) tool in training such a large animal. It is safe and tactful for both horse and human. And it does get results. Equine positive reinforcement training is used at the highest level of competition. You donít see riders offering treats in the Olympic arena to their positive reinforcement trained horses. It is a tool that clearly defines the exact desired response while the horse is learning. Once the horse has a solid grasp of whatís expected the tool is phased out and not to be used as a crutch forever more.

One commenter gives an example of how positive reinforcement would be a poor fit in our workplace. But weíre not talking about where we work; weíre talking about training horses. We must remember that context and reality are everything.

A pushy horse trained using positive reinforcement isnít like that because of the training method, that problem lies solely at the feet of the trainer. And thatís just as common in negative reinforcement training too Ė possibly more so because itís the path most trainers go down.

As much as there are those who feel they must disagree with the definition of the standard terms Ďpositiveí and Ďnegativeí as applied to positive reinforcement training, the terms are nothing more than mathematical (meaning to add or remove) not Ďgoodí or Ďbadí. Disagreeing with those terms as they are used in this context would have to be up there with disagreeing that the grass is green.
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