Join-Up or Parelli? (Or both?!) - Page 5
   

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Join-Up or Parelli? (Or both?!)

This is a discussion on Join-Up or Parelli? (Or both?!) within the Horse Training forums, part of the Training Horses category

     
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        10-24-2008, 11:10 AM
      #41
    Showing
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by SonnyWimps    
    The only thing that I've used of Monty Roberts was the join-up and I thought it was stupid and it did not help my horse at all.
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by SonnyWimps    



    I have used join-up with MANY many horses, and it has helped immensely. Getting them to turn INTO you and listen to your body helps a lot. I've turned a horse that was pretty much a bronc into a trail guide horse using a lot of this technique. It took a lot of work, but it was well worth it, and I found it helped a ton.
    My trainer does join-up with all of her horses, and strongly believes it helps.
    Sonny, perhaps you weren't using the technique properly, and that's why it didn't help?
    The idea is that you get the horse responding to very subtle cues to change gait, change direction (turning towards you, not showing his butt), and stay on the outside of the circle until you ask him to come in. The join-up part works very well to connect with the horse.
         
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        10-24-2008, 06:49 PM
      #42
    Yearling
    I agree JustDressageIt - my instructor was the one who taught me how to do join up, what to look for etc etc. It's helped every horse I've done it with, especially with my wee mare who can be quite the toad. Her rider was riding her the other day and I happened to notice that she was licking and chewing - what a happy horse! And sometimes because I tend to stand in the middle of the riders circle, she had her inside ear on me and her outside ear on the rider... don't want to encourage her to listen to me when she's being ridden by someone else, but she hasn't been in the join up pen in ages and so I found this quite interesting. Since noticing the change in her, she's been doing a lot of licking and chewing and is such a different horse. For a horse that once would bolt off towards home whenever she got the chance, and loved to rear and freak everyone out (she's been checked for soreness and her gear fits, etc), she is now accepting to go with her rider. It's such an amazing change! I've thanked my instructor/best friend for passing this amazing bonding technique over to me!

    As for using all this expensive gear - I may get flamed for not "doing it properly" but I've just stuck my horses in their own halters and done join up. Because I don't do any more of the Monty Roberts stuff, I don't see the point in buying gear that frankly I'm never going to use.
    x
         
        10-24-2008, 06:56 PM
      #43
    Trained
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by ohmyitschelle    
    As for using all this expensive gear - I may get flamed for not "doing it properly" but I've just stuck my horses in their own halters and done join up. Because I don't do any more of the Monty Roberts stuff, I don't see the point in buying gear that frankly I'm never going to use.
    x

    I don't think you need to use his stuff. I just thought it'd be a helpful tool for me to have myself...Actually I'm pretty sure I read or saw somewhere he himself say that you don't need his tools to do it.
         
        10-24-2008, 07:30 PM
      #44
    Showing
    As for the expensive gear - heck no! I'm not going to spend my money on that sort of stuff.
    Join-up can be done with nothing more than a round pen and yourself... maybe a lunge whip.
         
        10-24-2008, 09:29 PM
      #45
    Banned
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by JustDressageIt    


    I have used join-up with MANY many horses, and it has helped immensely. Getting them to turn INTO you and listen to your body helps a lot. I've turned a horse that was pretty much a bronc into a trail guide horse using a lot of this technique. It took a lot of work, but it was well worth it, and I found it helped a ton.
    My trainer does join-up with all of her horses, and strongly believes it helps.
    Sonny, perhaps you weren't using the technique properly, and that's why it didn't help?
    The idea is that you get the horse responding to very subtle cues to change gait, change direction (turning towards you, not showing his butt), and stay on the outside of the circle until you ask him to come in. The join-up part works very well to connect with the horse.
    From all that I know, I was doing it correctly and my two friends who uses Join-ups for their horses and are HUGE Robert's fans were there and helped me. Sonny did everything "correct" in terms of turning in, and not switching directions by turning into the fence (and give me the butt), and so on....but it did not help at all with our relationship infact he seemed more cautious around me after I did that.

    In a way, I can see how join-up CAN be a good method, but what happens if you get a horse that will NOT turn into you...that will NOT relax or start licking his lips? If I understood the video of Robert's performing Join-up, aren't you supposed to lunge the horse over and over again until he lowers his head, licks his lips, pays attention to you, and finally turns into you when you give them your back? Maybe I'm misunderstanding it....


    As for the Parelli rope halter...yes there are tons of rope halters out there, and I bought a cheapy one because I didn't want to waste the money....I bought a pretty Double Diamond rope halter and used that for a while. But I noticed that, compared to the Parelli halter, mine was extremely stiff. So I bought the Parelli one and I was amazed at the difference in how well my horse responded!!! (I ride in my rope halter if you guys don't already know).
    Like Robert's and Anderson's stuff, they are not necessary to do the NH. Some of the items for Parelli I find makes everything easier....like the carrot stick with the savvy string. It's not needed, you can use the end of the lead rope (not sure if you can for the assessments though) instead. Just as some of you pointed out...the Robert's halter isn't really needed to preform any of his stuff.
         
        10-24-2008, 09:54 PM
      #46
    Showing
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by SonnyWimps    
    From all that I know, I was doing it correctly and my two friends who uses Join-ups for their horses and are HUGE Robert's fans were there and helped me. Sonny did everything "correct" in terms of turning in, and not switching directions by turning into the fence (and give me the butt), and so on....but it did not help at all with our relationship infact he seemed more 1) cautious around me after I did that.
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by SonnyWimps    
    In a way, I can see how join-up CAN be a good method, but 2) what happens if you get a horse that will NOT turn into you...that will NOT relax or start licking his lips? If I understood the video of Robert's performing Join-up, aren't you supposed to lunge the horse over and over again until he lowers his head, licks his lips, pays attention to you, and finally turns into you when you give them your back? Maybe I'm misunderstanding it....
    1) Cautious, or respecting of your space? I was worried about that too when I started with join up (many moons ago... haha) but my friend instantly pointed out that hey - my horse wasn't crowding me. She joined up, but kept her distance... because they aren't supposed to crowd you.

    2) Yes. I never once "given up" before the horse. Didn't matter if I was out there for 10 minutes or an hour before the horse started turning into me. I had one very stubborn horse (the bronc) that I literally worked for 2 hours before he started consistently turning into me. It took a LOT of work on both our ends (read: walking except for when the horse turned his butt, then I would make him trot or lope to get after him, then asked him to walk again) but at the end of the session I had the horse turning into me. Finally when I asked him to join up, he did. The next day I took him back to the round pen and he only had a couple of slip-ups where he'd turn his butt, but 90% of his direction changes were on the rail and turning towards me... not bad for day #2! He'd join up without hesitation - on top of that, he respected my space!! When I'd stop, he'd stop, I moved forwards, he did.



    **oh my goodness, I cannot for the life of me get the double quote off.
         
        10-24-2008, 10:18 PM
      #47
    Banned
    He was respectful of my space, but not in the manner of he knew I was the lead horse and he wanted to respect my space....but like he HAD to respect my space. He was extremely caustios of what he did...like if I asked him to do something on the ground, he'd stare at me, start breathing heavy, as if I make sure that is really waht I wanted.

    See that is what I don't like about Join-Up. I don't think lunging a horse (like the bronc that you said you worked with) for 2 hours is a good approach to training a horse. I dunno, but lunging a horse for 2 hours seems over kill...but that's just me. I don't see how lunging a horse is going to make them WANT to be with you. Yes it might make them respect you, but could it be that they are respecting you in fear that you'll lunge them again?
         
        10-24-2008, 11:04 PM
      #48
    Foal
    I've never had anything to do with Parelli, but i've read one of Monty Robert's books (Shy Boy). I read it in one day and thought it was amazing. I would try join up on my horse, but I haven't got a round yard at my house to try it. But I think it would help him.

    But I agree with what a lot of people have said, that using bits and pieces of stuff that you've learnt, as well as common sense helps a lot.

    Lol that's just my 2 cents
         
        10-25-2008, 04:26 AM
      #49
    Weanling
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Filly213    
    i've never had anything to do with Parelli, but i've read one of Monty Robert's books (Shy Boy). I read it in one day and thought it was amazing. I would try join up on my horse, but I haven't got a round yard at my house to try it. But I think it would help him.

    But I agree with what a lot of people have said, that using bits and pieces of stuff that you've learnt, as well as common sense helps a lot.

    Lol that's just my 2 cents
    Here, Here! I think that may have been my concept before I went on and on with my comment! LOL!

    Horses are like people, and are like methods.. Not one method will work for every person or horse! But persistance and dedication to advancing and improving are the most important elements!

    PS: On a note about the round pen.. If you do not happen to have one as of yet, a lunge line will work just as well, if not better! There are many who use the comfort and ease of a round pen, over the working nature of a lunge line. You can pick one up for well under $30 at most places. This will also help those that are having issues with facing!
         
        10-25-2008, 02:50 PM
      #50
    Showing
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by SonnyWimps    
    he was respectful of my space, but not in the manner of he knew I was the lead horse and he wanted to respect my space....but like he HAD to respect my space. He was extremely caustios of what he did...like if I asked him to do something on the ground, he'd stare at me, start breathing heavy, as if I make sure that is really waht I wanted.

    See that is what I don't like about Join-Up. I don't think lunging a horse (like the bronc that you said you worked with) for 2 hours is a good approach to training a horse. I dunno, but lunging a horse for 2 hours seems over kill...but that's just me. I don't see how lunging a horse is going to make them WANT to be with you. Yes it might make them respect you, but could it be that they are respecting you in fear that you'll lunge them again?
    Sounds like you may have approached the Join-Up strangely then... is it a possibility that your friends didn't know as much about it as they claimed? Personally I know tons of people that come into the tack shop every day that claim to know such and such, studied under so and so... and the more they talk (which sounds convincing to the untrained ear!) the more I knew they were laying on the BS.
    The way you worded that (he started breathing heavy, etc) makes me wonder what exactly you had this horse doing to get that kind of result... and this isn't an attack on you, Sonny, I'm just pointing out that perhaps the technique wasn't used properly.

    Yes, it took me two hours... at a walk. I do not consider it overkill - it got the result I wanted without any physical or emotional harm being done. This horse was going to be sent to slaughter otherwise, so I figured a little walking wasn't going to kill him.
    The person that tried to school him prior to me tried to desensitize him by putting a saddle on and making him lunge around with a little bit of leather hanging down on the saddle... that session ended with him bolting, crashing through the fence, and cutting himself up pretty bad. Needless to say we had some issues to work through.
    Plus this horse was 9 - I didn't have to worry about him straining joints like you do younger horses.
    By the end of the week I had to turn this horse around, he was turning into me, respecting my space, joining up (respectfully), and I could do much much more with him than I could before. He even started behaving under saddle.
    So yes, I do believe in the technique... even more so after this horse.


         

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