Jynx has taken to temper tantrums... - Page 3 - The Horse Forum
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post #21 of 72 Old 04-11-2011, 02:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Northern View Post
OMG, never knew RH said that! So true! Thanks, TLO!

Because, by "playing", you're offering Love, Language, & Leadership, not just CONTROL, like a predator. You already admitted that lack of groundwork has come back to bite you, so? Herd-boundness is NOT a psychological PROBLEM in a horse! It is NATURAL, & when you become the leader in your herd of two, you'll just LOVE your horse's herdboundness!
How is my mare completely losing her mind and not even thinking of her own safety natural? Sure to some extent it is but she's way over the top. It is not natural, or healthy. I am all for natural horsemanship and practice it everyday, but cannot see how "playing" with them together would fix her issues. Great in theory though. I do work with them together, and shed great as long as she isn't taken away from her. I can and do work with her while the other mare is there, that's fine and dandy but it doesn't help when the mare leaves.
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post #22 of 72 Old 04-11-2011, 03:11 PM
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FWIW, I don't think its a physical problem, but an emotional one. She's not listening to you because she can't and you can't teach her if she's not paying attention. IMHO, emotional issues are fear based and I don't handle them the same way I do disobedience/disrespect issues. Personally, I wouldn't tie her up and let her fight it out - being restrained isn't what's causing the anxiety and lack of self control - separation is. As jwells84 suggested above, I'd treat her like a weanling, separate her completely from the other horse in a place where she cannot get hurt and let her deal with it in her own way. I'd also approach working with her in the same way I would approach dealing with any other "fear based" issue - desensitize her - work with her where she is comfortable and get her gradually used to being further and further away from the other horses. IN MY OPINION this is a horse that doesn't need a relationship with you - she's getting what she needs from Justus. Until you take Justus out of the picture and teach her that she will be safe and secure with you, then you might as well be pissing in the wind. Relationship wise, right now, all you two do is fight and argue, THAT is what needs to change. She doesn't want to be with you because being with you is STRESSFUL. Like all problems, this didn't happen over night and it won't be fixed overnight. I'm not saying be all lovey dovey with her, she doesn't need that either. What she does need is leadership presented when she needs it and in a way that is nonthreatening.
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post #23 of 72 Old 04-11-2011, 03:12 PM
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TKB she's acting out to save herself which is completely natural. I guess you would have to learn more about why playing with your horse in the presence of their herd mates works. But I do think it has been answered. Is there something specific you don't understand?
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post #24 of 72 Old 04-11-2011, 03:23 PM
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You have your opinions and I have mine. I used my opinions and experience with my mare and solved her issue, which is why I posted on here to begin with. These things worked for me(and my mare) and those things work for you and that's fine. I don't have to agree with them for them to work. I'm not going to continue with this argument because I'm not the one looking for help, and this isn't getting the OP anywhere, which isn't fair on her thread.
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post #25 of 72 Old 04-11-2011, 03:27 PM
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MM, I think I understand a little what you're dealing with. I occasionally groundwork a spoiled rotten QH gelding for some elderly neighbors. These people are only his second home in ~15 years, and they've had him for about 8 years now. He ruled the roost at his first home (my understanding is that he was never exactly weaned until he was sold), and rules the roost now. The owners simply aren't physically able to provide the leadership that he needs to be a good citizen, and honestly think that his semi-dangerous high-jinks are "cute." :roll:

This gelding basically has a very low threshold of tolerance for human direction. There just comes a point where if you assert yourself, he gives you the finger and throws a tantrum until he breaks something and gets his way. He is a master of "shock and awe" tactics. He's better for me than for the owners, because I've managed up to now to not push him to a tantrum while still getting my point across and not letting him "win." They and his previous owners simply allowed a pattern of behavior and dominance to start, and now, 10 years later, we have a "problem-child."

The only advice I can give you based on personal experience is to be creative, be totally and completely unemotional about everything, and be satisfied with little steps. The gelding above responds very well when I adopt the general mindset of taking his ideas to my defined extreme; he wants to do x, and I'll encourage that movement until he's bored with it and 5 seconds longer, then let him rest on my terms.

I'm sure that you already know how to do all of this; Jynx is your horse, you know her and her mind better than anyone. I'm just offering up my similar experience, hopefully you can draw some use from it for yourself. I'll be lurking to see if there are any good suggestions for my neighbor's gelding as well.

Best of luck!!

A stubborn horse walks behind you, an impatient one in front of you, but a noble companion walks beside you ~ Unknown
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post #26 of 72 Old 04-11-2011, 03:30 PM
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Well -- Loved one -- I'll bet you have actually 'fixed' as many truly herd-bound horses like this as you have seen Thorobreds being abused in cross ties on the race track. [I am afraid you lost ALL credibility with me on that one!]

You can spout all of the theories you want, but horses that get this panicked over separation have probably not seen the Parelli DVDs. A horse like this is as dangerous as an aggressive horse. I, personally, would not be bothered taking my time and risking my well-being even trying to work with a horse like this until it has gotten over the separation. It has nothing about the horse's relationship with its owner and has everything to do with the fact that the horse has gotten phobic and irrational about a 'horse friendship'.

As a matter of fact, I had one brought to me a few years ago by a woman that was 100% into Parelli and had had years of private tutoring by a 3 star (or something like that) Parelli instructor. She just could not understand why her perfectly trained horse that knew all 7 games and would do them at liberty had suddenly come completely apart on her when she moved him. It seems he 'fell in love' with a mare at the new place she had him and he went completely crazy. It was not her relationship but his mind-set that needed changed.

We inherited the worst one I have ever seen when my husband went to work for a cutting horse breeder. He had a mare that had won quite a bit of money as a 3 and 4 year old and was hauled all over the Midwest. She came back to live home as a 5 year old and was going to be shown in non-pro by her owner. Then, she fell in love with the horses on either side of her stall. She was home where the man had open stall tops with mesh instead of solid sides like his trainer had. We put her in a solid stud stall and she ruined the stall, dug holes and grooves in the floor a foot or deeper, sored up both hocks twisting and turning on them -- so she was put back in her open stall.

She was hauled to a cutting show in St Louis and quit the cow to whinny in the middle of a class. This, mind you, is a very well trained finished cutting mare that lost her mind. She reared up in the warm-up pen with her non-pro owner. She was un-showable and the owner was beside himself as he had over $20,000.00 in training in her and she had shown that she could win a pretty tough cutting.

I told them I thought tying her out would be the only solution. [I was training for the public out of the same barn.] The owner OKed it, so we found a suitable tree about 100 yards from the barn. We hung a good rope down from a big tree limb (had to get in a tractor front end loader to do it). It took 3 full days for her to give it up. The first day, husband had to go out with the front end loader 2 or 3 times and fill back in the hole she dug. It was about 3 feet deep and she was standing on her tippy-toes. He only had to fill it back up once the second day and by the afternoon of the third day, she was standing with a hip cocked by that evening.

They went back to riding her the next day and she was a different horse. They left the rope hanging from the tree and tied her out to it to cool off after each bath following working -- just to make sure she kept her thinking straight. They started hauling her again shortly after that and she rode like she was supposed to. They even took her to overnight shows and she was OK in a strange barn with strange horses. The only thing they did differently with her was to change her stall and/or her neighbors regularly so sh ewould not get that attached to a certain horse after that.
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post #27 of 72 Old 04-11-2011, 03:38 PM
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Yes! I have also heard that Ray Hunt said that. I have also heard that he said the same thing about mules.

Having raised and trained both and having shown Arabians at a National level, I must say that most Arabians and Mules ARE indeed smarter than their handlers. And "Yes!", Arabians also respond very well to tying out until settled just like any other horse I've trained.
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post #28 of 72 Old 04-11-2011, 03:41 PM
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Thanks Cherie but you never had any credibility with me after reading your first post a couple months ago. There are lots of trainers just like you and the horses are not fixed overnight which becomes apparent once they go back to their owners. I am always amused when I hear of these Parelli owned horses. I can talk about lots of people Parelli and non-Parelli that have troubles with their horses. Some people are just not good with horses. This proves nothing about you as a trainer.
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post #29 of 72 Old 04-11-2011, 03:47 PM
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I didn't see anywhere in there that even slightly suggested that lack of groundwork was the problem. MM has said many times that she is committed to groundwork with Jynx.

While it is awesome that NH works for you both, maybe it wont work for MM and her horses. Trying to put every horse in the NH basket is what makes NH so frustrating! Not every horse is into it! Not every rider is in to it!

If Jynx is throwing temper tantrums at work, stick with work. MM, you know this mare best. Take everyones advice and come up with a solution that works for her. To me, playing with her in the field is only going to show her that home is much more fun than away. If play must be introduced, I would do it away from her herd.

ETA: No 'problem' with horses is *EVER* solved quickly. You don't just tie a horse out away from its friends for a few hours and then *TADA* all finished! It is about a work in progress. My OTTB has issues with boundaries on the ground. If I send him away one day, I better be prepared to do it again day after day til he really gets it. And even then...6 months from now, he is probably going to try to push the issue again. It is natural to challenge boundaries.

Last edited by corinowalk; 04-11-2011 at 03:51 PM.
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post #30 of 72 Old 04-11-2011, 03:56 PM
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Just curious Corinowalk what is ETA? I thought it means estimated time of arrival.
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