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Laying A Horse Down *VIDS*

3K views 20 replies 10 participants last post by  AlabamaHorseMom 
#1 ·
Each of the two videos I'm going to share have explainations on their youtube page saying why I'm doing this and the reasons. I was hesitant to post about this because I know we have ALOT of natural horsemanship types in here, myself included to an extent.

I've tried numerous times to get Eve to JoinUp with me in a round pen but to her, the round pen means work and training. At no point did she lower her head or starting licking/chewing to try and join up, she just trots forever until she's hot and sweaty. She doesn't get it. :?

Under an experienced horseman's advise I tried laying her down as a form of JoinUp - asking her to get into her most vulnerable position and trust me to protect her. The first video is from the second time I laid her down...she put up a bit of a fight but she went down within a couple minutes. The second vid is from today, this being the 5th time I've laid her down and it went ALOT smoother. No rearing at all, but still a little hesitant.

After each time I lay her down I take off the western saddle and groom her for 15-20 minutes and praise her like crazy. Then I either work on her leading (walk, trot, whoa, turning on the fore/hind all in hand on a loose lead) OR I tack her up english and ride her in the paddock I laid her down in. She's doing phenominal with her riding now, focussed on me instead of what *might* be in the bush, responds to all her voice commands, and is just alot more receptive to what I'm trying to do with her. :D

SO, watch the vids and let me know what you think - but before you blast me I have to tell you I'm not just some chick on a power trip. In no way am I FORCING her down, as soon as she goes to her knees I let slack in the lead and gently pull on the saddle horn saying "Down". It's her CHOICE to go down instead of continue fighting, thus the JoinUp in it.

2nd time


5th time
 
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#2 ·
The last one looked really good. Now if you want to just let her go to her knee and then let her back up a few times before you ask her to go all the way over it may make her a little softer. The horse I layed down this fall was that way. I would ask him to give and go down and then I would let him up and pretty soon I would ask him to go to his knee and it took very little to get him all the way down. She looks like she has just a little bit of a brace in her neck still so you may need to ask her to flex around without her foot up and get her soft flexing her head away from you. I have looked at alot of the youtube videos and yours is one of the better ones.
 
#3 ·
Thank you, very gratifying to know not only am I doing it right, but doing it well. Means alot.

I'll work on her flexing, I noticed she braces against the lead as well. She'll flex well standing and under saddle, but once her leg's in the air, she tenses. I'll try asking her to flex away from me while standing at her shoulder, see if she relaxes more. As for her backing up while on her knee, that was all her...I didn't ask her to back, just followed where she went and asked her to go down. Thanks for the tips and any more are welcome! :)
 
#5 ·
DAMN girl. You've got a pair. I would have called it quits after the first attempt so fast the horse's head would have spun, not to mention that she hops six feet in the air in the next two attempts and you don't even seem to bat an eyelash.

Kudos.

LOL! Thanks, I grew 'em myself! Going to take that as a compliment :lol:

But, if I bat an eyelash, why should she trust me enough to go down in the first place? I have to be confidant in everything I do with that horse because she second guesses herself enough without me adding to it. With the leap across the pen, I actually grabbed the horn and kinda flew with her...ONLY reason I stayed with her that time! LOL! She'd gotten away from me once already that session, couldn't let it happen again.

The more we do this, the less she fights it, the more confidant I get with it. The first time I did this, I was nervous...not going to lie. She's a big girl and in a wrestling match, she'll win. That's why I didn't expect her to go down right away...let her fight herself a bit, get a little tired, then show her what I want and praise the HECK out of her when I get it. :D
 
#6 · (Edited)
I do the same thing with my horses; Ms. Flicka is my 'fighter'...she's not scared, nasty, or naughty persay, just kinda stands there like "You want me to do what? Oh, is this right? No...how about this?" Haha

I wouldn't worry too much about nervousness; you look like you're doing just fine. I have to admit too, the first few times I did it with Flick, I was a bit nervous because she's built like a tank, and if she were to flip out, we could both get hurt...fortunately she's not really a fighter...just like stands there and falls asleep! Acck!!!

Oh, and I loved when the cat and dog just suddenly "appeared" like, "oooh, what's going on?" Lol!
 
#7 ·
The first couple times, Eve freaked a bit...but now she's settled and knows pretty much what I want. Coupld more times and she'll have it. Your description of what goes through Flika's head was priceless...made me LOL! I think anyone new to laying a horse down would be nervous though, it's like nothing else we do with them. The ONLY thing I could relate it to is training the 2 year olds to let me trim their feet...Jynx used to jump around SO bad, although she's better now, I'm still on my toes when it's her on my stand.

And the critters as my spectators...I meant to put my dog, Tika, in the dogrun for this. She can get over-excited at times. The cat doesn't interfere with anything, but I really didn't mean to leave Tika loose, and won't be next time. After watching the vid, she got a little closer to us than I would've liked.
 
#8 ·
I dunno, its interesting to me, but it isn't something I'd ever do. I guess I just don't get it.

All I can think is it looks like a great way for a horse to knock their hips or back or ribs out of alignment, and put a bunch of stress on the knee and fetlock. I can see a horse injuring their stifle with this exercise as well. I'd rather try something different than lay a horse down and then have to pay for a few $100 sessions with a chiro to put it back together. *shrug*

Can you explain the technique more? Why did you choose this specific exercise? I'm not being rude at all, I just don't get it!

I'm always open to new ideas though. I've heard of this before, but never watched a video like yours.
 
#9 ·
I dunno, its interesting to me, but it isn't something I'd ever do. I guess I just don't get it.

All I can think is it looks like a great way for a horse to knock their hips or back or ribs out of alignment, and put a bunch of stress on the knee and fetlock. I can see a horse injuring their stifle with this exercise as well. I'd rather try something different than lay a horse down and then have to pay for a few $100 sessions with a chiro to put it back together. *shrug*

Can you explain the technique more? Why did you choose this specific exercise? I'm not being rude at all, I just don't get it!

I'm always open to new ideas though. I've heard of this before, but never watched a video like yours.
I don't blame you for being skeptic, I was myself at first. And I assure you this is a LAST resort with Eve...like I said before I've tried traditional JoinUp with her NUMEROUS times but she simply doesn't get it. She sees the round pen as a place to work, not as a place for human and horse to become one. I don't know how else to put it...the round pen to Eve is lunging, not round penning. I suppose I brought that on myself by teaching her to lunge on-line IN the round pen, so that the fence acted as a guide for her. Now even off-line, round penning is lunging.

I do realise the strain this exersize is putting on her joints, I'm definitely not overlooking that. But just like traditional JoinUp, once they understand it, the work beforehand becomes less...after a week or two, I don't plan on laying her down to warm her up before I work with her. Every now and again as a refresher if she gets ornery yes, but I don't want this to be part of our daily routine.

Without traditional JoinUp, I'd done ALOT of groundwork. Lots of desensatizing, lots of leading, lots of ground driving...and it was paying off slowly, but not the same as the other horses I have. At first I thought it was a breed thing, I've never had a draft before and I know they mature physically slower than average horses, thought maybe she's behind mentally too...so we took a couple steps back and went back to ground manners and leading. I'm just sick of her clipping the back of my heels, testing how many extra steps she can get before a stop, and plain out ignoring my request to trot. She had NO respect for me as a human or handler. NONE. I was a fly on the wall and if she *felt* like it, she'd do as I ask.

At this point I tried JoinUp again, thinking maybe it had been enough time since we'd lunged and she'd connect the dots but so such luck. So I started looking into alternative methods. This is when I was told about laying down a horse. I'm very new to it myself so won't be the best at describing it, but I'll give it a go.

From my understanding, you're asking the horse to get into it's most vulnerable position and therefore placing it's trust in you. I'm not FORCING her down, but I'm making laying down the easy option, staying standing harder. When she struggles to stay up, that's the "work" before Joining Up, same as sending them out in a round pen. When she gives and lays down, she's completely relaxed and the fights over - she's Joining Up, same as entering the center of the round pen. I wish I could have a camera in my pocket when I do this because as soon as she goes down, she's licking, chewing, and has her eyes closed, nice deep breathes...she is totally relaxed and has placed her trust in me.

Not sure if that clarified anything for you? I'm sure other members with more experience than I could give you a better definition, but that's my take on it.
 
#10 ·
Thanks for the explanation, it does make sense.

I've just never been one to do the JoinUp exercise. I did it with my horse the other day, and it worked, but I didn't really see the point.

I guess in your situation if I was you, I'd put her back on the line and start over, teaching her the basics of trotting, walking, whoa, and stand in the round pen. I'm still very intrigued by the technique though!
 
#11 ·
With a young or new horse, I'll do JoinUp...but with my old mares, I can't remember the last time we did it because they don't test anymore. They just know. I see JoinUp as a training tool, not a daily or even weekly thing.

Your suggestion is awesome, but in the round pen she's great with her verbal commands. She'll walk, trot, canter and easy is just to come down a gait, her whoa needs a little work though. In any case, off line she's golden...it was when I was leading her and asking these things that she was a bit of a cow about it. It was the same verbal commands, but something about walking at my shoulder instead of on my heels was just not catching on. Now she's doing all of these on a loose lead, at my shoulder, and turning on her fore/hind with just a touch and saying over.

I'm not saying it's a magic cure for a pushy horse, but it's a darn good start. There's still ALOT of work that goes into the session both before and after it. If laying her down a couple times made NO difference in her, then I'd continue my search for the method that worked for her...in no way am I stuck on laying her down just because it's "cool". I'm actually hoping to try JoinUp in the round pen again in the near future...see if laying her down and giving her the concept was enough to make her understand what I'm asking when we're in the round pen. I'll keep her lunging time out in the yard on-line then.
 
#13 ·
Hey, that's cool! I dig the alternative methods when they work! I'm glad she's respecting you!

No worries, I didn't think you were just trying to be cool. :)
 
#12 ·
I've tried join up with my last horse, my current horse, and my mom's mare. None of them have ever done the licking and chewing. Brego is the best at it (my current horse). He was extremely naughty yesterday so I got T'ed off and kept him going and going and going. He knows the whole I get your butt moving and you ONLY come to me when I say you can and then following me around but it doesn't usually last. Yesterday it got to where his head was near the ground. No licking or chewing but close. It makes me wonder if all those horses Monty Roberts works with do that licking and chewing.

Wow way to stick with her! She really is a fighter and for a horse this stubborn I think you're doing a good job and I would probably do it the same way myself.
 
#14 ·
I hope you don't mind me taking this a little off topic. I just wanted to put in a word about join-up. How long does it usually take to complete? It obviously varies according to the horse and I'm assuming shortens with repetition, but on average? I usually turn out school horses before I ride them and will free lunge them with a lead rope if I feel they need to get out some energy. However, I never do it for very long, and have never had the horses actually lower their head and chew. Every horse I've free lunged, though, will come to me and follow.
 
#15 ·
I don't mind at all, it's still on the main topic, which is Joining Up with your horse in all it's methods. I don't think it's fair to put a time limit on JoinUp. Or a frequency for that matter. For example, I had a Welsh Pony/Appy/Mustang filly that learned to JoinUp as a long yearling. I did roughly 20 sessions with her varying from 2 hours to 30 minutes. This was late in her yearling year and all of her 2 year old year. Now as a 5 year old, the girl I gave her to does JoinUp about once every 3-4 weeks, just to make sure the understanding of their bond is clear. Yes, this pony is an adored pet, a protected friend, a loved companion and an obedient mount...but she's still a snotty little Welsh Pony! LOL! That being said, that's what's so lovable about her. She WILL test you every now and again, see if you'll believe her if she pretends to have forgotten what leading properly is...now for this pony it takes about 5-10 minutes to have her fully JoinUp. I'm not going to cut us off at the 10 minute mark if she's not ready, but that's her average time. Repitition is key though - can't expect to get faster at understanding something that's never practised. That being said, I haven't Joined Up with my mom's 12 year old mare in YEARS so if the need arose, it would probably take her a little longer to remember what it was about.

From what you've described with your school horses, I don't consider that JoinUp, although I do appreciate free/on-line lunging as a training tool as well. Each method has it's values. What you're doing is letting them blow off some steam before having to behave...even though they'll follow you after it, that doesn't mean that they see you as the "leader", doesn't mean they've made that connection. My yearlings were first to the gate, total pocket ponies BEFORE JoinUp just because they were attention hogs, loved being groomed, and just couldn't get enough of anything human. AFTER JoinUp they were the same curious attitude, but with some respect for personal space.

The goal behind JoinUp is not just to get the horse to follow you around. It's to establish some dominance in the relationship and assert yourself as the horse's leader, to earn their trust, and gain their respect. In doing this, the horse will want to stay with their chosen "new leader", thus following. The licking and chewing is a natural response that the horse is listening and being submissive - asking to JoinUp.

If anyone has anything to add to my description, please feel free...but that's how I've always understood JoinUp. There's obviously more to it, but it's late here and I work in the morning. Would love to see what other members can add.
 
#16 ·
Right, I never go into the process with the mindset of it being join-up. I've never actually consciously tried to do so. I understand the whole mental relationship it creates, establishing yourself as the alpha, etc.
However, it almost seems as if the brief free lunging in the ring is acting inadvertently as what I'm hesitantly labeling as a partial join-up. After all, something mental must be going on in their head if they decide "Hey, I'm going to follow."
 
#19 ·
What I would do is not be so sharp in your voice when you tell her "down" because some of the reason why she wasn't laying down is because she would get nervous. What I do when I do this is be very soothing and quiet with your voice to get the horse to relax and drop down. You get farther with honey than with vinegar :) Good job though
 
#20 ·
K so update time - I'd laid Eve down 5 times and the last went the smoothest. Day before yesterday it was wet and kinda slick out so I figured I'd introduced the idea of JoinUp - time to see if she'd link in to the round pen. I tried JoinUp in the round pen and within 15 minutes she had her inside ear on me and was tipping her head in. Changed direction and she started lowering her head so at the first sight of licking I asked her to JoinUp and she stopped, looked at me, and Joined Up!!! YAY!!!

I did the same thing yesterday and got the same result but a little quicker - much more lip action and I pushed a little more for the licking and chewing but the same result but with no hesitation before Joining Up.

*does happy dance*

My monster just needed and intro to what was expected of her apparently. Needless to say I'll not be laying her down more unless it's required...it was a training tool and it worked as such. It did it's part and now I'm doing mine to make the process less stressful and more beneficial for the both of us. Thanks for all the replies and advise!
 
#21 ·
Ok, is the same method as The TAP? I'm not fond of either/or, but if it works for you than I can understand.
I agree with starting over. When you lunge do you ALWAYS use a lunge whip? Maybe try and dressage bat, or tying a plastic bag to the end of the lunge whip? Anything to make it "different" than just working.
 
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