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Leads

This is a discussion on Leads within the Horse Training forums, part of the Training Horses category

     
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        10-10-2010, 09:52 PM
      #21
    Banned
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by MacabreMikolaj    
    Thank you for telling me what everyone already knows without actually giving me any additional information to help fix the problem.

    I know how to ride a canter transition, I know how to ask, and obviously the problem is that it's not working. I'm also fully aware of HOW a canter works and the fact that it an engine problem and not a forehand problem.

    People aren't wrong just because they differ in method, and I trust smrobs training advice moreso then any other person on this board, so the remark isn't very called for.

    Smilie is EXACTLY right but since you only trust one person's advice here on this board I will back out thank you.
         
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        10-10-2010, 09:54 PM
      #22
    Green Broke
    I never said I only trust ONE person, thank you kindly. I don't appreciate someone waltzing in and insulting one of the better trainers ON this forum.

    Smilie gave me zero useable advice. If you can translate what she said into something I can use, fantastic. She gave me a lesson on how the function of a canter work, which I am perfectly aware of.
         
        10-10-2010, 10:10 PM
      #23
    Trained
    You do have to accept though that the horse can canter on that lead and does it on the lunge without a rider so the problem might be rider imbalance. It would be worth it to self examine slightly and figure out if you are twisting something or leaning a certain way that is making it hard for her to canter on that lead. And the canter leads don't come from the head, otherwise why would I be able to pick up a counter-bent counter-canter in a corner? But life would be a lot easier if just pulling on a rein worked...

    Anyways, about the foot. I did basically the same thing (horse had shoes too) in sneakers and then went surveying in a nice, hilly, swampy area for 5 days directly after. It just hurts, but there's nothing the doctors can do anyways. As long as it can still fit in your riding boot, you're good to go!
         
        10-10-2010, 10:11 PM
      #24
    Banned
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by MacabreMikolaj    
    I never said I only trust ONE person, thank you kindly. I don't appreciate someone waltzing in and insulting one of the better trainers ON this forum.

    Smilie gave me zero useable advice. If you can translate what she said into something I can use, fantastic. She gave me a lesson on how the function of a canter work, which I am perfectly aware of.
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by MacabreMikolaj    
    I trust smrobs training advice more so then any other person on this board, so the remark isn't very called for.

    Thanks but no thanks. It is easily fixed but since it would go directly against the person you trust MORE that anyone else, do whatever you think will work.

    I have marked down those that throw the shoulder in to get the canter as it puts the horse in a crooked balance position and that is a serious no no to me.
         
        10-10-2010, 10:44 PM
      #25
    Green Broke
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by ~*~anebel~*~    
    You do have to accept though that the horse can canter on that lead and does it on the lunge without a rider so the problem might be rider imbalance. It would be worth it to self examine slightly and figure out if you are twisting something or leaning a certain way that is making it hard for her to canter on that lead. And the canter leads don't come from the head, otherwise why would I be able to pick up a counter-bent counter-canter in a corner? But life would be a lot easier if just pulling on a rein worked...

    Anyways, about the foot. I did basically the same thing (horse had shoes too) in sneakers and then went surveying in a nice, hilly, swampy area for 5 days directly after. It just hurts, but there's nothing the doctors can do anyways. As long as it can still fit in your riding boot, you're good to go!
    For sure, and I definitely think it's more my fault then anything. However, I did get someone else to ride her (the same person she DID pick the lead up for on the lunge) and she couldn't get her to pick it up either without the same extreme tactics.

    So either she's got a hang up about the corner, or my imbalance has caused her to start thinking that way for ALL riders.

    Spyder - I can understand that, I would never use that method in a show ring, and I obviously know it's not the DESIRED method to pick up a canter. It just seems better to force the lead and praise her then continue letting her go on the wrong lead. Hence, if someone has better advice, I'm game to hear it, but calling someone else down about their method when you have little to nothing to contribute to the discussion is just ignorant and rude. I DO trust smrobs above all other people on the board, that does NOT mean I am closed to other opinions as I can almost guarantee smrobs HERSELF would be interested in hearing OTHER opinions, hence why I respect her so much.
         
        10-10-2010, 11:06 PM
      #26
    Foal
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by MacabreMikolaj    
    I never said I only trust ONE person, thank you kindly. I don't appreciate someone waltzing in and insulting one of the better trainers ON this forum.

    Smilie gave me zero useable advice. If you can translate what she said into something I can use, fantastic. She gave me a lesson on how the function of a canter work, which I am perfectly aware of.
    I try not to give advice contrary to what is standard , by professionals at the top of their industry
    The advise I gave concerning lead departures are standard for people like Bob Avila, Bob loomas , Al Dunning and a host of other horsemen I have taken info from over the years-horsemen that produce World, NRHA and NRCHA horses, just to name a few
    In fact, go back a year or so in Horse and Rider, and positioning a horse such as you are, under the advise of your trainer, is contrary to making it easy for a horse to pick up the correct lead. It forces them,out of incorrect body position, and often has the horse picking up the lead in front and dropping it behind
    Sometimes it helps to have an open mind,, look beyond the `local`level and if not able to take clinics from those that have proven themselves at upper end, then the information is readily there on DVDs and in books, written by trainers that have proven themselves over the years at upper end of their discipline
    Quite simple
    Have a horse that is broke enough to keep topline in a transitition and has body control
    Move hip into lead
    Keep inside shoulder up with inside rein, so horse can drive up correctly from behind
    Sit up, don`t lean, and drive horse up into lead from behind,instead of letting him fall into it out of foreward momentum by trotting into it
    Body aleignment needs to be correct,and that means nose is not tipped out
    I see you are from Canada. Perhaps you might recognize people I have taken clinics with
    Les Timmons
    Cyril Desjarlais, Just to name a few. Maybe tell them they are wrong!
         
        10-10-2010, 11:08 PM
      #27
    Banned
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by MacabreMikolaj    

    Spyder - I can understand that, I would never use that method in a show ring, and I obviously know it's not the DESIRED method to pick up a canter. It just seems better to force the lead and praise her then continue letting her go on the wrong lead. Hence, if someone has better advice, I'm game to hear it, but calling someone else down about their method when you have little to nothing to contribute to the discussion is just ignorant and rude.


    I found your answer to be both arrogant and insulting and not even against me. There are several people on this board that can give you good advice. This is not to say Smrobs advice was bad but it is not the only way and NO I would not force or allow ANY horse I was training to do something that would force it to do something thinking that I would just do an about change and do it right in the show ring. Your home ground is your training ring and THAT is where your training is perfected.

    As far as smilie not giving you advice..they said what they would do and WHY. Any trainer that knows their stuff will always say why and I also agree with them that professional trainers that STILL teach to put the horse in a crooked position to get what they want are no trainer in my book.

    NO WHERE in smilie's post did they put any one down as they neither quoted anyone or mention any names.


    Quote:
    I DO trust smrobs above all other people on the board, that does NOT mean I am closed to other opinions as I can almost guarantee smrobs HERSELF would be interested in hearing OTHER opinions, hence why I respect her so much.
    It seems to me that a private PM to the person whose opinion you trust above anyone on this board would have been a better route to go..or just use the opinions you will get on HGS.
         
        10-10-2010, 11:12 PM
      #28
    Trained
    Yes but, perfect practice does make perfect. If the horse is not doing what you want you're either making it very hard for them to do so (ie ill fitting tack, placing their body or your body wrong, etc..) or you are not asking in a clear way. Because you AND another rider were both not able to get the lead using the same method, I would suggest changing the method. Imbalance or "forcing her to do it" is NEVER a good way to fix things. Put the horse straight on a line (a circle, a staight line, whatever, just keep her haunches right in line with her forehand) and ask for the canter like a normal person. Ie sitting straight, with the horse flexed to the inside so you can see the inside eye and don't move or shove the horse into the transition. It should just go and if it doesn't well then it's hole fixin' time. Any horse, I don't care what discipline, should canter from a small leg aid. You shouldn't have to move it's head and hips on all sorts of interesting lines to get it. Make the horse straight and press the "go" button.
         
        10-10-2010, 11:40 PM
      #29
    Foal
    Anebel, yes, a horse will pick up leads from very small leg aids, so that the hip moving into a lead is barely noticable, if at all, on a finished horse
    None the less, hip control is key
    I have always remembered what a World Champion western rider told me concerning flying changes
    Flying changes are nothing more than a series of opposite lead departures, without breaking gait
    The body cues are the same, and in reining and western riding, where both lead departures and flying changes are done without rein support, that hip control ,however slight is key
    Watch a reiner on a stop to lope lead departure, where the pattern starts at center
         
        10-10-2010, 11:56 PM
      #30
    Trained
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Smilie    
    Anebel, yes, a horse will pick up leads from very small leg aids, so that the hip moving into a lead is barely noticable, if at all, on a finished horse
    None the less, hip control is key
    I have always remembered what a World Champion western rider told me concerning flying changes
    Flying changes are nothing more than a series of opposite lead departures, without breaking gait
    The body cues are the same, and in reining and western riding, where both lead departures and flying changes are done without rein support, that hip control ,however slight is key
    Watch a reiner on a stop to lope lead departure, where the pattern starts at center
    I'm going to say this as honestly as possible and mean absolutely no offense but I don't ride Western and don't care to. Speaking strictly from a dressage perspective the forehand should actually be inside of the haunches in a shoulder fore position at all times including in the canter depart. Yes there are some similarities between disciplines, a flying change is basically a canter depart either way. But in the dressage, we shift the weight onto the haunches so therefore if the haunches are not behind the horse, you're going off sideways somewhere. In dressage we do not ever disengage the hip like is so common in western training. I did not post on this thread to be told how to ride a finished western horse.

    Anyways, considering OP is trying to train the horse in dressage (I'm assuming from what I've read on HGS) the last thing the horse needs is a disengaged hip as having a hip or haunch to the inside in a canter depart gets you a nice "4". And a really great, downhill canter afterwards.

    And seriously all this name dropping stuff can stop any time. You're not the only one that's ridden with a world champion that is posting on this thread..
         

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