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Leads

This is a discussion on Leads within the Horse Training forums, part of the Training Horses category

     
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        10-11-2010, 01:23 AM
      #31
    Foal
    Western riders do not disengage the hips,. ( I don't use the one rein stop )
    The OP was aiming towards a western pl class, far as I know, not dressage
    I have no interest in riding dressage, nor do I think that all horses need a dressage foundation, a view held by many dressage riders.
    You perform neither correct lead departures nor flying changes by dis engaging the hips
    I'm not trying to make this a dressage versus western riding, but hip control , along with shoulders and ribs is the basics of any reining , western pl program or even hus , which I also ride.
    In fact, I have done well in HUS, judged by a judge from a dressage background, so I really don't think good body control on a horse, light invisible cues are that different between disciplines
    Dressage is only one way to train a horse, and not the bible on good horses that are responsive to invisible leg cues. We do achieve that also on our western horses
         
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        10-11-2010, 01:26 AM
      #32
    Yearling
    I can go into technicalities but everyone else has done so already. All I have to say is that what ever method you choose it takes practice and tons of it. In my experience the canter takes the most work to perfect..

    Start off with someone thing she knows (ie canter on circles) when she does that right make a big deal about it... release pressure, pet, scratch, "good girl". Then when you attempt a canter transition on the rail. Stop and redo until she gets it and then make it a big deal when she gets it correct.
         
        10-11-2010, 01:26 AM
      #33
    Banned
    My horse had a terrible time with getting his anti clockwise lead when I was riding him. I would literally have to ask him about 10 times and pull him up and try again. My trainer suggested a ground pole in the corner where I asked for it, and it worked a treat. He now gets the correct lead about 98% of the time without the pole and only a few times of using the pole.
         
        10-11-2010, 01:43 AM
      #34
    Banned
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Smilie    
    Western riders do not disengage the hips,. ( I don't use the one rein stop )
    Just that they fling this term around so much that OI wonder if they really know it meaning.

    Quote:
    The OP was aiming towards a western pl class, far as I know, not dressage.
    She mentioned it was a COMBINED show with English and western classes and did not say which classes she was entering.

    Quote:
    I have no interest in riding dressage, nor do I think that all horses need a dressage foundation, a view held by many dressage riders.
    VERY VERY UNTRUE. Dressage is simply just good riding to allow the horse to do what is wanted from it...the last I heard that is wanted by every discipline !
         
        10-11-2010, 02:16 AM
      #35
    Green Broke
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by smrobs    
    Thank you MM. It may not be the best way to teach leads, but if all else fails, you have to do something to get them on the correct lead and I am not a fan of using spurs to force the issue like a lot of people will. After all, you can't work on the lead if they refuse to pick it up, right?
    If it works though, it works!
         
        10-11-2010, 10:45 AM
      #36
    Green Broke
    Thanks guys!

    She is going to be doing both, but as of yet she is moreso trained Western I would say, by the fact that she's ridden on a loose rein with very little contact. I will be working on that with her to.

    This is strictly for fun, it's a little cheapie show, so exposure is my goal. If she funks up her leads in a class, I'll blow the class to train her instead.

    My ultimate goal is probably moreso English with her, I would like to be doing Dressage and jumping on her in the next couple of years with some barrel racing and endurance thrown in. Mostly I want to see what she's good at because I enjoy doing most everything and love having an all around horse.

    I'll work with her today on the straightness and relaxation, see if I can't get her balanced by riding her straight into the transition instead of out of a corner. Thanks!
         
        10-11-2010, 02:28 PM
      #37
    Foal
    Here is a video that shows the importance of hip control, using the counter canter
    To teach lead changes
    When the hip is moved slightly into the lead, one is not dis engaging the hip, as one would doing a turn on the forehand, and the horse's body is kept straight
    Also, moving the hip over is for the lead departure and flying changes ,and one does not lope with the hip in, unless doing a specific training excerise
    This western riding pattern video has been used before, but I will use it again, as, I like this horse, raise Appaloosas and western riding used to be a favorite class of mine
    The lead departure body control has been put into use in advancing to western riding, which requires percise lead changes at exact markers with the horse not speeding up, and excecuting them on a loose rein
    Note the slight moving of the hips into the new lead, at each change, while the body stays in correct aleigment
    Okay, that is all I'm going to post on the subject, use it if you like.
    I start my horse's show career in western pl, trail and equitation. I then add hunter under saddle, and have no difficulity using the exact same cues come to lead departures, I only have the horse moving on light contact and extend the stride. We like our topline level in stock horses, whether HUS or western pl.
    Even the reiners now are working with a level head set
    You can't have athletic movement in any discipline without collection, thus engagement of the hind end, so I really get ticked when someone suggests that all western horses move on the forehand, uncollected
    Anyway, while a non pro, I have trained and shown my own horses at the level I can afford, for years, both open and non pro.
    I've earned year end awards on my horses in western pl, reining, western riding, games, hunter under saddle, trail and cattle.
    My current horse has ROMs in western pl, open and non pro, trail, open and non pro, halter, HUS and hunter in Hand mares
    I like to think I know the mechanics of lead departures and flying changes by now.
    While there are more than one way to train a horse, all good programs, whether dressage western or what have you, are based around total body control, softeness and finesse to leg aids
         
        10-11-2010, 07:16 PM
      #38
    Trained
    Sweetheart, in that first video, what he is doing is called "disengaging the hips". I highly, highly suggest you pick up a book, stop bragging about all the people you've ridden with and championships you've won and read it. You might learn something.

    A "straight" horse is one going with the inside of his body parallel to the wall. Because the haunches are wider than the shoulders, this means that the shoulders are further to the inside than the haunches. What you are showing in the videos is the horse's hips to the inside, IE disengaged haunches, and a not straight horse. The hips are part of the body. You can't have a body in correct alignment with hips to the inside.

    In dressage, we also ride to exact markers and are judged on our transitions.
    "Dressage is simply just good riding to allow the horse to do what is wanted from it...the last I heard that is wanted by every discipline !"
         
        10-11-2010, 07:34 PM
      #39
    Showing
    I apologize, it wasn't my intention to cause such an uproar. I was just offering a suggestion that has worked for me in the past on a horse that is stubborn with leads.
         
        10-12-2010, 01:33 AM
      #40
    Foal
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by ~*~anebel~*~    
    Sweetheart, in that first video, what he is doing is called "disengaging the hips". I highly, highly suggest you pick up a book, stop bragging about all the people you've ridden with and championships you've won and read it. You might learn something.

    A "straight" horse is one going with the inside of his body parallel to the wall. Because the haunches are wider than the shoulders, this means that the shoulders are further to the inside than the haunches. What you are showing in the videos is the horse's hips to the inside, IE disengaged haunches, and a not straight horse. The hips are part of the body. You can't have a body in correct alignment with hips to the inside.

    In dressage, we also ride to exact markers and are judged on our transitions.
    "Dressage is simply just good riding to allow the horse to do what is wanted from it...the last I heard that is wanted by every discipline !"
    Well, darling, since we are on such intimate terms, how did you spend your day?
    I spent the day really engaging those hips of my western show horse by climbing a mountain
    The references I gave, were to give validity to some of my comments, not brag, but you'll have to excuse the fact that they come from a western discipline background, and not dressage
    I don't know what your problem is, far as the principal of using hip control for correct hind end first lead departures and changes.
    When a horse changes correctly behind first, he will be correct in front. The converse is not true
    For a horse to change behind and drive up in front to complete the change, his rear has to be engaged
    The method I posted are universal accepted western discipline lead departures and lead changes, but then all those reiners are just a bunch of country bumpkins when it comes to dressage princesses
    I'm trying not to paint all dressage riders with the same brush, as I do appreciate seeing an upper dressage horse, and have watched such demos at Spruce Meadows.
    Unfortunately there are enough dressage riders like you, that consider all western riding and training beneath them
    My son who started many colts while going to university, and now rides and shows reiners and working cowhorses, told me of an incident that stuck in my mind
    He was at a stable, where his girl friend at the time boarded a horse.
    One dressage princess asked her companion whether they should wrap their horse's legs for travel.
    The other one replied, 'no, we'll just cowboy it today'
    So why don't you practice some Rollkur, 'sweetheart'
         

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