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Learned Helplessness

This is a discussion on Learned Helplessness within the Horse Training forums, part of the Training Horses category

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        06-23-2014, 05:06 PM
      #21
    Foal
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Corporal    
    Once you train a horse to not fear traffic or cars, anybody could take the horse, ride in traffic and get the horse (and themselves) hit by a car and killed. It DOES make your horse more vulnerable to not fear what his instincts TELL him to fear. However, we, as caretakers, normally take care of our horse's needs and that includes safety. We HAVE to think for our well trained, well behaved horses so that their training does not lead them to danger.
    What horses are you training? It's possible to have a well behaved horse that isn't a robot.. My guys aren't scared of any traffic, but I can ride them on the road and drop my stirrups and reins and if they hear a car or anything coming, they move off to get out of the way. They know to walk on the edge of the road, and what side to walk on, but I'd never be able to force them in front of a speeding semi truck or even a little car that was coming our way. They'll move.

    If you turn a horse into a glorified furry robot, you're using a bit of learned helplessness yourself. I don't like horses that can't think for themselves. That's why I refuse to rent horses at state parks and such, because they KNOW the trails. Ever notice how those trails look like stairs? The horses are so dead that they automatically put their hooves in the same spot all day! These horses could have a mountain lion on the trail and they'd walk right into him if he didn't move because they can't think for themselves anymore, whereas everyday normal horses would be sprinting for the hills if they saw one! Horses. Have. Common. Sense. A lot more than most people do.
    Wallaby likes this.
         
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        06-23-2014, 05:30 PM
      #22
    Trained
    Obviously you have NOT read the recent threads where people, while riding their horses on the roads have been nearly hit, run off of the road, or had objects thrown at them, which cause some to bolt. =/
         
        06-23-2014, 05:44 PM
      #23
    Foal
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Corporal    
    Obviously you have NOT read the recent threads where people, while riding their horses on the roads have been nearly hit, run off of the road, or had objects thrown at them, which cause some to bolt. =/
    No, I haven't. But any horse will not continue to walk straight at a vehicle that is coming at them. And with your original post that I replied to a while ago, riding in TRAFFIC is a lot different than riding on roads. Traffic riding is a death wish anyway. (Granted I call traffic like Los Angeles at lunch time/dinner time traffic) I frequently ride backroads because our property isn't conveniently connected. My horses hear a car coming and MOVE. I'm just there as a backup plan in case they don't catch it. If your horse doesn't know how to get out of the way of a car, they probably shouldn't be on a road.. Me being a mechanic that was raised in shops, most all vehicles make noise. (Except the really new ones, but someone caused a stink about it so they're going to fix that soon anyway) especially when you go faster. Rev your car's engine, I bet you'll be able to hear it. If you can hear it, your horse can hear it. Ride in the woods. Your horses ears will be twitching at things before you ever hear them. So why is your horse relying on you to not get killed in this situation?

    I have a friend that runs her green horse up a hill onto the road at a blind turn. THAT is irresponsible. If you do that and get hit, you had it coming. But if you're walking your horse on a straightaway or even just walking on a road, you will probably get a warning before the car gets to you. I can play music loudly from my phone and still avoid cars that fly around blind turns and stuff, because my horses and I pay attention.

    Having things thrown at you is an entirely different topic that wasn't even brought up here so I'll just disregard that.
         
        06-23-2014, 05:46 PM
      #24
    Green Broke
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by PandaJinxes    
    What horses are you training? It's possible to have a well behaved horse that isn't a robot.. My guys aren't scared of any traffic, but I can ride them on the road and drop my stirrups and reins and if they hear a car or anything coming, they move off to get out of the way. They know to walk on the edge of the road, and what side to walk on, but I'd never be able to force them in front of a speeding semi truck or even a little car that was coming our way. They'll move.

    If you turn a horse into a glorified furry robot, you're using a bit of learned helplessness yourself. I don't like horses that can't think for themselves. That's why I refuse to rent horses at state parks and such, because they KNOW the trails. Ever notice how those trails look like stairs? The horses are so dead that they automatically put their hooves in the same spot all day! These horses could have a mountain lion on the trail and they'd walk right into him if he didn't move because they can't think for themselves anymore, whereas everyday normal horses would be sprinting for the hills if they saw one! Horses. Have. Common. Sense. A lot more than most people do.

    The first highlighted part is so incredibly dangerous and absurd. Sure you can attempt to predict your horse's actions, but not other peoples. Please don't do that while riding on the road. For everyone's sake.

    Horses also have a very strong basic instinct. They do not rationalize or think like we do. "Common sense" is just what a horse has learned and come accustom to over time.
         
        06-23-2014, 06:58 PM
      #25
    Foal
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by .Delete.    
    The first highlighted part is so incredibly dangerous and absurd. Sure you can attempt to predict your horse's actions, but not other peoples. Please don't do that while riding on the road. For everyone's sake.

    Horses also have a very strong basic instinct. They do not rationalize or think like we do. "Common sense" is just what a horse has learned and come accustom to over time.
    Except I can still control my boys without relying on tack? Especially Ray responds to leg and seat aids well. I can drop everything, even ride bareback, and still control my guys. Drift not as well, that's why with him I usually don't just drop reins with both hands unless I can get them back quickly.

    Would I do it with just any random horse that I pulled out of a field? No. THAT would be dangerous and absurd.

    I guess you'd have a heart attack if you saw half the things I've done and will continue to do with my boys. They've been trained well enough at home that I know what I can and can't do with them. so thanks for your concern, but yeah
         
        06-23-2014, 07:05 PM
      #26
    Trained
    The most stressful riding I have ever done was to train horses to perform at NATIONAL CW Reenactments (training began at the small ones.) At Antietam, we were breaking in an older TWH that we had recently bought, who had trouble with the 5AM one hour artillary battle, and DH had to dismount bc of his stress. We rode all over the field, weapons being shot, shot off of their backs, wheeled around infantry, artillery and other Cavalry, AND the crowds. The horses got used to it and lost their fear and came to depend upon the wisdom of the rider. Even the troublesome OTTB gelding I owned, FINALLY got worn out at his first event and could only walk, so he began losing his fear of all of the loud noises and other stimuli. If you only show your horses, or trail ride them, it is unlikely that they will be exposed to these things. I am proud to say that I complete trained 15 horses to the hobby that ANYBODY could ride into battle safely.
    You know, a lot of what is argued here isn't really about the horse, it is about "WHAT I KNOW ABOUT HORSES." If you wish to have the last word and be right, so be it.
    I have the reputation among those who rode with me of turning out good, safe horses. Go fight with someone else. =/
         
        06-23-2014, 07:10 PM
      #27
    Foal
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Corporal    
    You know, a lot of what is argued here isn't really about the horse, it is about "WHAT I KNOW ABOUT HORSES." If you wish to have the last word and be right, so be it.
    I have the reputation among those who rode with me of turning out good, safe horses. Go fight with someone else. =/
    Actually it was about how well my horses handle traffic. but yeah.

    Never tried to fight you, either. I was simply stating my opinion and then backed myself up when my opinion was challenged. And you also aren't the only trainer on earth, and haven't worked with every trainer on earth, (nobody has) so pulling this reputation rebuttal out of space is crazy..

    But I'm done so yay more HF ridiculousness
         
        06-23-2014, 08:19 PM
      #28
    Green Broke
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by PandaJinxes    
    Actually it was about how well my horses handle traffic. but yeah.

    Never tried to fight you, either. I was simply stating my opinion and then backed myself up when my opinion was challenged. And you also aren't the only trainer on earth, and haven't worked with every trainer on earth, (nobody has) so pulling this reputation rebuttal out of space is crazy..

    But I'm done so yay more HF ridiculousness
    Our concern isn't with a lack of experience on your end. I am sure you and your horses are fantastically well trained and behaved. Which is awesome.

    Our concern is with OTHER PEOPLE. How do you know the person on the road isn't a drunk driver? How do you know they are paying attention? Even if you move they can swerve and hit you, they can kick up a rock and hit your horse, they can throw things at you, etc. All of these things pose a risk to you and your horse. Lack of tack, rein, stirrup, etc makes this all the more dangerous.

    You know, a while ago a woman was walking her infant in a stroller on the sidewalk. A boy who was high and texting swerved and ended up hitting them. While they were on the sidewalk. The infant now is on life support for the rest of its life.

    You may think things like this may never happen to you. Which is cool. You may have faith in the people around you and how aware they are. Which is also cool. But whatever world you're living in, can I come too? Because I'd love to live in a world where I trust everyone around me.
         

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