LONG Post.. How Would You Handle This Gelding??

OK Guys. I have got a horse here. Born and raised on our farm. He is six years of age now. Something between green broke and broke. He is an extremely well bred horse coming from two highly intelligent parents which caused him to be super smart. His conformation is near flawless. He is beyond athletic. His personality is cocky. His color makes everyone drool and to top it off his parents are our favorite horses ((shhh)) but he KNOWS this. He is the catch of everyones attention when they come to our farm and HE KNOWS this. Heres the deal. I know that we've spoiled him rotten. He is 16.2 hands and 1,200 pounds of mischievous full of himself know it all horse. He does not respect the human species. He is not hard for those who know him to handle but he will try to boss and intimidate anyone. His behaviors include: 1)) being quite horse aggressive whether your in his way or not. 2)) Leaning over the fence acting like he wants attention from a new comer to the farm but then they get close enough to pet the gorgeous horse he is, he pins his ears..stomps front feet..stomps back feet..pretends he may bite..grabs ahold of sweatshirt or jacket more or less playfully.. ((You can chase him off, scold him, ignore him, pay tons of attention to his face, hit him, kick him and nothing stops his behavior if your in his reach..very grabby)) 3)) when tied up for grooming he'll be playing with whatever he is tied to.. stomping feet.. wiggling.. reaching around to grab you're coat/shirt/glove or available body part.. acting grumpy and try to smash you into the wall or just plain sideways walk over you ((Again you an choose to ignore him leave him tied for three hours then come back to try again.. ignore him and continue grooming.. smack him around and tell him quit.. push back.. nip back.. take him off from standing tied and lounge him saying if you're not paying attention and respecting then we'll work and again none have worked.. not in the least bit.. no change these are only some of what I've tried)) 4)) for saddling he is much the same.. wiggling.. not paying attention to busy reaching over the fence to poke someone.. reaching over the stall to poke someone.. untining what he is tied to.. or walking over you with his ears pinned.

PLEASE NOTE I manage to get around these behaviors better than anyone else. I am mom and hold more respect with him but not enough and I know this. I'm looking for advice on how to deal with a horse whos been like this since the day he was born. He was imprinted and has had lots of handling. Day one he had a halter on. Week one he was leading. Week two he knew whoa. Month one he had a saddle pad and lead rope on his back. He was ponied along on trail rides as a young'en and did not miss any training points. I've raised over ten foals and broke many a young horse but I have never encountered a horse like him. I'm open to ideas. Please don't call me stupid or assume I have never owned a horse before and don't know what I am talking about. I am however open to training opinions regarding him. I am open to the idea that his behavior is our doing in some way. Ideas.. suggestions..non rude comments..helpful not nit picky please not looking for an argument.
PLEASE NOTE as well he was sent to a outside trainer for ground manners/respect..this is a well known Natural Horsemanship trainer and I paid a considerable amount thinking maybe it was just me. No break threw.. he returned the same ole Jasper. I would try again with another trainer but I feel this is something I can do. If the man I sent him to did little for him its un likely other trainers are the correct choice.

Continuing on!

~ He IS friendly. Very. Very social. Very smart. Very quick learner but TOO quick. He gets bored easily.
~ He IS first to greet you. Will put his head in a halter for you like PLEASE PICK ME. Willing but then gets naughty due to.. boredom?
~He gets annoyed easily.
~He is super sensitive to peoples emotions. If your mad..he'll be mad. If you don't like him..he don't like you. If your upset.. he'll find a way to make you more upset. You HAVE HAVE HAVE to leave your problems at home even when walking into his pasture or something as simple as leading him.
~He has learned he's a very big boy and most are intimidated by him.
~He is not "Mean" OR "Nasty" OR "Rank" Not "Wild" OR "Hot"
~He is quite lazy. He is playful. He is smart. He can be a bully but is not a vicious horse. When I say he pins his ears and pretends he'll bite he does this not attacks humans. I know NOT GOOD but don't assume worse, just trying to paint a clear picture not trying to defend him!

He was twelve hours old and would leave his mothers side to pick on pasture mates. He would pin his little bratty ears and try to boss them around. He was like this from the get-go.

Under Saddle. He is broke at w/t/c and gallop. Just a play/pleasure horse. He SHOULD have a show carrier but I have no interest in doing so. Again he is very sensitive to feeling and emotion. If your nervous he acts up, if your angry he's ready to fight if your sad he'll make ya sadder, if your worried he'll give you a bigger worry. If your thinking clear and you focus on him the ride is great. If you forget for one minute who you are riding he'll stop and wont move. He'll jump sideways into a ditch like "just checking". He'll grab the bit putting the shank or O in his mouth from either side and turn himself. He has sit down before.
No, No, No not your normal horse at all. He does not buck. Does not bolt. Does not rear or crow hop. Is not spooky (Hes to cocky to be scared of anything) He pulls some goofy stunt like sitting..spinning himself..

Yes, his ground behavior is very stallion like. I will say he is much easier to ride than he is to handle on the ground. But riding Jasper is not relaxing.. ever. Grooming him is not even relaxing. He is not what I would call safe to allow kids near due to his grumpy mood sings and his goofy behaviors such as the time when he picked a kid up by the hood of his jacket.

SORRY. This got very long but I felt it necessary if I was going to ask for input that you get a fairly clear picture of the horse. Now, any advice?

I'm looking for respect ((Oh btw.. Putting him in a round pen is a joke)). I'm looking to get and keep his attention ((AT This point 5 minutes of his attention would stun me)) Looking for a way to teach him to tone down the aggression. Possibly get him to become less opinionated on peoples emotions!

Sounds like you've got your hands full! Seems to keep you on your toes all the time...sorry I'm not of much help, but I'm VERY interested to read all the replies! My mom has a mare similar to what you're describing but WAY toned down from him - she'll nip you pantleg when you swing up bareback, buck you off only if you're not paying attention, otherwise she's a very good riding horse, just has little attitude fits when she thinks she can get away with it. I hope you figure it out with your horse, can't wait to see how this topic progresses...

[quote=Patches457;490623]OK Guys. I have got a horse here. Born and raised on our farm. He is six years of age now. Something between green broke and broke. we've spoiled him rotten. He is 16.2 hands and 1,200 pounds His behaviors include: 1)) being quite horse aggressive whether your in his way or not. 2)) Leaning over the fence, he pins his ears..stomps front feet..stomps back feet..

He was imprinted and has had lots of handling.




Under Saddle. He is broke at w/t/c and gallop. Just a play/pleasure horse.

I'm looking for respect Looking for a way to teach him to tone down the aggression.



Sorry,
I had to make it shorter as I was getting a headache.

Start over with the ground handling!
You have taken ALL the flight out of the horse and he is not a puppy.
You need to re-prioritize YOUR ground handling program.

I agree with Marecare...he needs to be retrained, like as if he's not been trained at all.

I like handling a baby from the day he is born, but I DO NOT imprint them ONTO humans; doing this can cause such problems as you are experiencing, especially if you treat him more like a 'pet' than an animal who is going to outweigh you by 10 times when he's full grown. And put that together with a foal who is outgoing and extremely confident...you get a very disrespectful potentially dangerous horse!!! I would not handle this horse lightly...that he is not afraid to PICK SOMEONE UP, tells me he is extremely disrespectful, and you may need to have someone help you deal with him...yes, I am suggesting another trainer, but don't send him off, have someone come and help you with him.

Either way, he needs to be retrained, and retaught to behave around humans. His behavior at the fence is him telling you to "get out of my space" plain and simple. Start there, by making him move out of your space each time you go into the pen. Ie, don't halter him immediately, just because he is the 'first one there'. Make him wait until you're ready for him, and any 'nasty' behavior you get him to back out of your space once more. Only halter him when he comes up to you with ears foward and a friendly expression.

Round pen work would benefit this horse, but you need to be persistant in what you are asking him, and not just in there to 'chase him around'.

I think the problem here is that he may have been over handled as a youngster, so he essentially learned that you were only so tall and so big. But, I think on the opposite end if he hadn't been handled, he would have turned into something of a "wild" horse.

I can definitely see parts of my horse in the way you described yours....he is an ex racehorse, and a winning one at that, so he pretty much got to do whatever he want, as long as he ran fast. He's dominant, an aggressive biter, he crow/bunny hops and bucks, and he can be stubborn as all get out. I've learned that he's at his best with consistent work and consistent challenges, but nothing that he absolutely can't do. Initially, it took a firm hand to get him to at least stop challenging me, and now we've come to an impasse--I give some and he gives some, and we respect each other equally. I am the only one who he's decided is decent enough to tolerate...he is much worse aggressiveness wise with other people. You have to be confident in yourself, or he'll run all over you. He'll occasionally swing his butt in my direction while I'm grooming him, nibble at the cross ties, paw once just to be cheeky....He also entertains himself by doing things he knows he shouldn't do....and making me angry with him.

Did the trainer you sent him to have any comments on him? I'd be interested to read those...Also, why can't you put him in a round pen?

I Agree With Everything Said. Thanks. He may have been over loved on/over handled as a foal..he was the talk of the farm that's for sure..and still is. Part of his behavior is from the pedestal everyone has him on and I know this.

He is only haltered if he comes up happily..which he always does. He comes to his name and trots up..ears perked..ready to do something. He puts his head in the halter himself if you hold it up..waits quietly when you get it buckled..leads nicely over to where you need him.

Mom2Pride. Part of my issue with his coming over to the fence deal is that its not with me. Its anyone else. He's had his face knocked off by me and like I said "im mom" done all his work. Its other people. Some one new to the farm. Or my beginner hubby, parents etc. They CANNOT get him to move. This is a horse who'd stand for being hit with a 2x4 and when you put the board down after hitting him across the head he'd look at you with glint in his eye and say ""...my turn........"" He IS NOT afraid of anything. If you come at him with a whip he'll turn angry and come charging towards you. He will knock you over and potentially kick. He knows its a stick that makes a noise and your still 150 pounds..

Also. Mare Care. I agree. But could you elaborate a little? I know he needs re-working from the ground up. That much everyone knows. But what do you suggest at this point? How to? How do you suggest we get the attention and respect of a horse like this/how would you handle..is what I was asking in the first post :)

The trainer came to a similar conclusion as I. I've been a trainer for ten years and do not by any stretch of the imagination claim one method or to know all. I vary method from horse to horse and study up all ways. But I've cured many a 'problem horse' ((Actually more fix horses with people problems)) but he has everyone stumped. Its like he can see you coming no matter what you do. He'll out smart at any cost. He'll behave if he wants but once he's bored its games. Its frusterating to ride a horse whos turning himself in circles and sitting down let me tell you!

As much of a pain as he sounds like everyone whos worked with him loves him.. he is quite unique and you get the feeling if you could only get his attention for a split second you'd have the worlds best horse.

And lastly.. He doesn't respond well to round pen work. He hangs his head over the railing and looks away from you the whole time. If you start to demand his attention he'll charge and yes he's thrown people out of the round pen. If you want him to go he stops if you want him to whoa he runs and bucks. Its more games that no one has been able to get around. I've gotten the farthest in the round pen, he'll lounge for me but that's about it. He'll keep his head in and pay attention for a short lesson but again.. that's about it. It seems to do more hurt than good.

You DO have a dangerous and disrespectful horse, whether you want to admit it or not...If he will knock you over in the round pen, then he doesn't have much respect for you either...like you said, he has no fear, because of how you've handled him. He has the upper hand, and he knows it; regardless of who is handling him. He NEEDS professional help! Like I said in my previous post, you don't necessarily have to send him to a trainer; if you do, you and your family need to actively take part in the training at the training facility. Ideally though, he would benefit from someone who knows how to already deal with a horse like him, to get him going in the right direction.

There is a dog training method called Nothing In Life Is Free, meaning the dog must work for EVERYTHING it gets from you.

I'm not certain how you could transition this type of training to a horse, but I'd sure try. Make your horse work for everything you do with him. Right now he knows how to push your buttons to make you stop the work. You need to push right back and make him work through it until YOU chose the time to stop.

This post or statement screams that you have not set any kind of boundaries with him and I suspect it is a combination of your personal training style and your admiration of this horse.
At this point I would suggest a trainer that is skilled and knowledgeable at "Restraint" training be called in to establish those limits on the horses behavior.
Done properly the horse will be put in no pain.
You have got to get his attention first!

Hobble train him.

He has to learn that people move his feet and he does not move peoples feet!

There was another recent post by a person who had a filly displaying virtually all the same behavior - particularly identical in the round pen. Simply zero respect, no fear of humans, no fear of a whip, nada. Apparantly she got fed up and took a cattle prod to her and the little lady got a bit of a "rehabilitation" out of it. I definitely don't condone abuse, but with dangerous horses sometimes desperate times call for desperate measures. If nothing else has worked, maybe it's time to show him you CAN cause pain if he wants to play that game. If he wants to get rough, it's time to get rougher.

Again, only a suggestion seeing as even a NH trainer couldn't get through to him. Maybe it's time to instill some fear back into him.