Lots of leg movement and going nowhere, lol. - Page 3 - The Horse Forum
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post #21 of 35 Old 01-02-2013, 11:42 PM
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If a horse needs to let off steam, the horse should be turned loose without a longe line or a saddle. Any time the horse is saddled or on a line, there should be 100% control by the handler. To let a horse do anything else, is just teaching a horse to be out of control. No horse should EVER be allowed to rip and tear around on a line or with a person in the round pen with them.

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post #22 of 35 Old 01-03-2013, 12:31 AM Thread Starter
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Thanks for all the advise everyone. Well, we went out today with husband on Kinley our gelding and she did great! She only resisted once and well, lol, its a funny story because she started dancing and backing up and backed into the hot wire, lol. She did this on our ride yesterday too, lol. I am thinking that it may work in my favor because she may think, "disobey mom and get shocked, do as told, no shock, lol. She was so relaxed it was so nice. My gelding on the other hand............... my husbands off billet broke jumping over a small creek and well, had a bucking fit!!! After that he was jiggy!!!! Poor boy, oh and husband too, lol.

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post #23 of 35 Old 01-03-2013, 12:34 AM Thread Starter
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Oh have to add. Used the total stop if she was not doing what I wanted and started again, worked great and quick too!!! Rest of the ride was uneventful after a couple stop and starts!! Now I have hubby doing it with our gelding. Because you are right, if you try to slow them without the stop it only gets worse. Need to stop and think and start again!! Loving it! Thanks!!!
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post #24 of 35 Old 01-03-2013, 12:41 AM
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Exactly Cherie.
I've had my fair share of horses that were too dangerous to get on immediately. In these cases it is far more appropriate to work to horse in hand, find their brain, then get on or do some light lunge work when they are under control. Allowing a horse to buck on the lunge is equivalent to allowing it to buck under saddle. I expect my horses to behave whenever I am on them or holding them. And no, I don't deal with old 'plodder' horses either.
Sure I'll lunge some horses before I get on - to warm up their back, get them loose and swinging, and to make sure they are responding to my voice cues. NOT to let then run around bucking, bolting or kicking towards me.
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post #25 of 35 Old 01-03-2013, 09:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Cherie View Post
If a horse needs to let off steam, the horse should be turned loose without a longe line or a saddle. Any time the horse is saddled or on a line, there should be 100% control by the handler. To let a horse do anything else, is just teaching a horse to be out of control. No horse should EVER be allowed to rip and tear around on a line or with a person in the round pen with them.
I've ridden with people who think that if they NEVER allow their horses to buck while wearing a saddle, they will never buck with a saddle. Sorry, but that is just false. I watched those people get thrown and have more problems than I ever did through many years of training problem horses for clients. If your horse is tense, or nervous or just has too much energy, and the opportunity or motivation arises to act out, guess what, he's going to buck, saddle, longe line, rider or none.

A horse that is too wound up to control needs to be put in a round pen/small arena and have a person start shaping their movements, ignore the bucking, but make your horse respect your control of the arena until he/she blows off the extra steam. Once your horse is calmly obeying your pressures you can go about your training, and this actually conditions your horse to be obedient even when he has pent up energy. Once you have a measure of control while he/she is fresh you can longe instead of turning loose in an arena.

Done properly, over time, your horse will let you control his high energy instead of being explosive.

This is how Eventers can take the most highly conditioned horses, have almost perfect control in the Dressage arena and still have a horse fresh enough for Cross Country.
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post #26 of 35 Old 01-03-2013, 09:30 AM
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Originally Posted by jmdnarri View Post
I've ridden with people who think that if they NEVER allow their horses to buck while wearing a saddle, they will never buck with a saddle. Sorry, but that is just false. I watched those people get thrown and have more problems than I ever did through many years of training problem horses for clients. If your horse is tense, or nervous or just has too much energy, and the opportunity or motivation arises to act out, guess what, he's going to buck, saddle, longe line, rider or none.

A horse that is too wound up to control needs to be put in a round pen/small arena and have a person start shaping their movements, ignore the bucking, but make your horse respect your control of the arena until he/she blows off the extra steam. Once your horse is calmly obeying your pressures you can go about your training, and this actually conditions your horse to be obedient even when he has pent up energy. Once you have a measure of control while he/she is fresh you can longe instead of turning loose in an arena.

Done properly, over time, your horse will let you control his high energy instead of being explosive.

This is how Eventers can take the most highly conditioned horses, have almost perfect control in the Dressage arena and still have a horse fresh enough for Cross Country.
Done properly, over time, it will just build up a horse's stamina and they will need to be lunged longer and longer before each ride.

This is NOT how eventers take highly conditioned horses into dressage. They do that through training - just as every other rider does. We should always be actively training the horse, and the FIRST THING anyone should teach a horse is that this behaviour is not appropriate at any time when the handler is handling the horse. Bucking and rearing and running around like a fool is NOT for on the lunge, that is what their pasture is for. The lunge is a tool for TRAINING the horse, not wearing it out by letting it act like a maniac.
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post #27 of 35 Old 01-03-2013, 09:34 AM
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OP - I would treat a jigger like I treat OTTBs. I bore them out of it. I would saddle up, and walk. And then walk some more. And walk, walk walk. I would walk until that horse was falling asleep on its feet, then I would walk for ten more minutes. A horse that jigs needs to learn that it is not going faster until YOU decide to go faster, so take away faster for a while. Walk. Walk circles, walk serpentines, walk figure eights, walk on a trail, but until you can reliably get a walk without jigging at all, I would not even trot.
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post #28 of 35 Old 01-03-2013, 09:50 AM
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Done properly, over time, it will just build up a horse's stamina and they will need to be lunged longer and longer before each ride.

This is NOT how eventers take highly conditioned horses into dressage. They do that through training - just as every other rider does. We should always be actively training the horse, and the FIRST THING anyone should teach a horse is that this behaviour is not appropriate at any time when the handler is handling the horse. Bucking and rearing and running around like a fool is NOT for on the lunge, that is what their pasture is for. The lunge is a tool for TRAINING the horse, not wearing it out by letting it act like a maniac.
Sorry, but I have been doing this as a professional for over 10 years now. I'm a graduate of Meredith Manor, a school for horse training that uses horses turned away by other trainers to teach students. I've found a niche in helping people with problem horses, I have also ridden under a few former Olympic team members. Disallowing your horse to act out, only heightens the issue, like shaking a sealed bottle of soda. Done properly, like I have with several dozen horses, you end up not needing to longe and having a horse that obeys even when they are fresh.

I'm not speaking in Theory, or success with one or two horses, but SEVERAL DOZEN horses labeled as "Problem Horses". I don't end up having to longe for longer and longer. Just the opposite, shorter and shorter till I don't need to at all.

The difference is, I don't just LET a horse buck and get out of control, I control the situation DESPITE the bucking until they settle into work, but I don't STOP the bucking, that is what people don't understand, and that is where the difference lies.

Last edited by jmdnarri; 01-03-2013 at 09:58 AM.
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post #29 of 35 Old 01-03-2013, 10:04 AM
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Sorry, but I have been doing this as a professional for over 10 years now. I'm a graduate of Meredith Manor, a school for horse training that uses horses turned away by other trainers to teach students. I've found a niche in helping people with problem horses, I have also ridden under a few former Olympic team members. Disallowing your horse to act out, only heightens the issue, like shaking a sealed bottle of soda. Done properly, like I have with several dozen horses, you end up not needing to longe and having a horse that obeys even when they are fresh.
You can tell me all you like about the amazing things you have done. It doesn't make your opinion any more or less valid than it was before, but the same goes - it doesn't make mine less either.

Regarding the underlined, I disagree. I think that a horse that is acting out has a reason, and if you diagnose and treat the REASON, then the horse has no reason to act out. In your example, it was pushing horses through transitions regardless of the bucking. I wouldn't do that (well I would push them at that particular time so that they didn't learn to buck to not have to do it), instead I would ask myself WHY the horse is bucking in the transition. I would assume that it was probably due to lack of balance, and I would work on that instead. I choose to set horses up for success in training, and that is how I do it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jmdnarri View Post
The difference is, I don't just LET a horse buck and get out of control, I control the situation DESPITE the bucking until they calm down, but I don't STOP the bucking, that is what people don't understand, and that is where the difference lies.
By allowing the buck, you ARE letting the horse buck. You are sending a clear signal to the horse - this is ok behaviour. That might work for you, and I am happy for you, but when I am lunging a horse, I expect better from them, and I demand it if they don't give it.
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post #30 of 35 Old 01-03-2013, 10:21 AM
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Oh have to add. Used the total stop if she was not doing what I wanted and started again, worked great and quick too!!! Rest of the ride was uneventful after a couple stop and starts!! Now I have hubby doing it with our gelding. Because you are right, if you try to slow them without the stop it only gets worse. Need to stop and think and start again!! Loving it! Thanks!!!
I've tried this the last couple of rides with Mia, and have also been seeing good results. If she jigs, we stop - and that means FULL stop, no shifting feet or fussing. If that means stopping to a back-up on the trail, so be it. If it means we stop 20 times in 20 feet, backing each time, so be it. And it seems to be helping her.

Lunging...

I'm not a pro anything. But when I started retraining Mia with a pro, and we put Mia in the round pen, she'd go nuts. Bolting, kicking her heels, etc. And the trainer told me that meant she needed to be worked HARD. As in MISERABLE HARD.

If she galloped in resentment, then she got to gallop hard and not stop. Or turn at a gallop, which she was willing to do. And keep turning and galloping and working until she was begging to stop. The trainer's point was that if she was willing to gallop mindlessly and ignore me in a round pen, then it would only be worse under saddle. Once she was willing to go at any pace I wanted, when I wanted, and slow when I wanted, and do outside and inside turns when I wanted, and do 100 in a row without error, only THEN was she ready for the next step, which was still weeks away from mounting.

As part of her training to become "just a trail horse", I started with leading her out. At first, we made it about 100 yards. We worked our way up to 3 miles. But every indication I have is that about half of what she can do with me when I'm on the ground is where I will start when I get on her back.

Mia is fundamentally a good, sweet horse. I haven't round penned her since we stopped over a year ago. But if I put her in a round pen, I wouldn't expect to see head tossing, kicking, and mindless bolting. If I did, things would get ugly fast and stay ugly for a while.

What am I missing?
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