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MAJOR tying problem. Please help

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        01-02-2013, 10:46 PM
      #41
    Banned
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by DriftingShadow    
    Thanks muppetgirl. I appreciate it. I am curious as how I would go about dealing with tying issue since it is sporadic? My friend once captured a video of me flapping a tarp in his face when we first trying to see if it was a pull back issue, and he was like "what?". Or he would pull back and then give immediately. How do I work with a tying problem that is only there .00001 % of the time? Thanks for the help and information!
    I would just change the way I tie and what I tie with (like I mentioned In The other post) and wait......I wouldn't necessarily be apt with a horse like this to 'set him up'........setting up is for brats.......
    But I would start some kind of very regular schedule with him in terms of riding, feeding, where you tie him etc. That way you can create some kind of gauge and start a process of elimination.

    If he pulls back in a nylon flat halter and breaks it, then just stands there.....note it, then wait a few days and switch him back to a rope halter and wait and see how berserk he goes next time he pulls back with the rope halter on. It could be that the pressure that he is exerting himself on that rope halter is triggering a huge panic in him.

    It's a slow process, but because this horse is 'unusual' I would be willing to give him the benefit of the doubt and work through a process of elimination before trying to train him to hard tie or anything like that.

    Just be very alert around him and give yourself plenty of space around him should you need to get out of the way. Also I would set up a very long lead rope and tie him at the usual length with a quick release knot and leave the pull end extended well away from him should you need to pull it in a hurry (I find one of those nice soft round rope lunge lines are good, gives you plenty to string out and away from him for you to safely get in and release him should (heaven forbid) he get in a real pickle).
         
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        01-02-2013, 10:52 PM
      #42
    Showing
    What I think is going on here is during those times when he will stand tied for long periods of time he is zoning out, catatonic. A horse will do this when he gives up as when tied he knows there is no escape and he's resigned himself to die. It's when he comes out of this state that he explodes in blind panic. The way to deal with this horse is to teach him other ways to stand without being tied so he doesn't become catatonic. You need to take him to an enclosure out of the barn. Remove his halter and begin teaching him to stand. This is where rewards will speed up the process. I have posted numerous times on how to teach him to stand until you give him permission to move away or graze. If you wish to try this method pm me and I will try to help you with this.
         
        01-02-2013, 10:54 PM
      #43
    Foal
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Muppetgirl    

    Infact it brings to mind one instance when I was in a tie stall with a pony that had been broke for about 9 months. It was about 13.hh and I had worked with it five days a week for about three months. It NEVER showed any signs of having a screw loose.....and on that particular day I brushed her, cleaned her hooves and then gently placed the saddle pad on her back (no soreness, we checked her thoroughly after) and she exploded and knocked me under her feet and spent about 30 seconds jumping all over me.....I worked alone at that job and thankfully a tradesman was at the barn and he heard the ruckus and came and got hold of the pony.......I sometimes wonder how long she would have spun out if someone didn't grab her????

    I run that incident through my mind sometimes and still cannot pinpoint why it happened......
    I have a QH gelding that will be 15 this spring, I bought him as a yearling, trained him myself and took him to school with me. While at school, he was 4 at the time, he had been "broke" for over a year, showing himself to be a very level headed fella, I went into his stall with the same saddle I had ridden him in all along, approached him from the left side, he had a clear view of me coming, and as I lifted the saddle he spooked, and reared for the fist time I had ever seen.

    Almost 11 years later he is my Right-Hand-Man and my best school horse. I must say he has done a few randomly odd things along the way, but I can't say he has ever been dangerous. It just proves that even good steady horses are still animals and subject to behavior we can't always predict.
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        01-02-2013, 10:57 PM
      #44
    Banned
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Saddlebag    
    What I think is going on here is during those times when he will stand tied for long periods of time he is zoning out, catatonic. A horse will do this when he gives up as when tied he knows there is no escape and he's resigned himself to die. It's when he comes out of this state that he explodes in blind panic. The way to deal with this horse is to teach him other ways to stand without being tied so he doesn't become catatonic. You need to take him to an enclosure out of the barn. Remove his halter and begin teaching him to stand. This is where rewards will speed up the process. I have posted numerous times on how to teach him to stand until you give him permission to move away or graze. If you wish to try this method pm me and I will try to help you with this.
    Saddlebag, I have already been teaching him to do this. We have progressed to where he will even stand in the pasture as his herd mates leave and I can walk to a distance of 50 feet and then call his name. He will come to me. He also knows to stay by my side at liberty unless I use the command "loose".

    However as of right now he only will stand IF I am in his line of sight. So I am working on that. If he thinks I can't see him he is like "see ya lady!". So its not strong enough to be working in place of tying as of yet. But that is indeed my ultimate goal with him :)

    And catatonic? How can he be catatonic if he is nuzzling on me? Whinnying to other horses? Trying to get grass? Isnt catatonic like a 'stupor'? In the one picture I posted of him time where I might say he appears 'catatonic' .. it was because I went to get him and he was laying down passed out asleep. He fell back asleep when he was tied. Sorry if I am off base here I might just be misunderstanding what you mean by catatonic
         
        01-02-2013, 11:47 PM
      #45
    Super Moderator
    Would there be any value, I wonder , in using the tap to lay him down.?
    HYBRID HORSEMANSHIP - About The TAP

    This is just a way out there idea. Maybe total junk, but this is a way out there problem
         
        01-03-2013, 01:06 AM
      #46
    Yearling
    Have you tried a aussie tie ring, you can get them on Clinton Anderson's site.
    I had a horse that I was told will not tie, he was older and I think the guy didn't want to be bothered to work with him. He would also freak out like that and pull and fall down.
    I got the tie ring and you use a long lead on it. Stay close to watch to make sure they don't get tangled up. As soon as I walked away he would pull back, then he realized that he wasn't stuck there and would stop.....I could tell he was thinking about it. Then he would pull back and stop, I would walk up and pull the lead back up to where it would be if he was tied and he would do the same thing, pull back but because he wasn't being held there he didn't act all stupid about it and would stop. I use the tie rings all the time with my horses at feeding time, my one I have to slip knot it because he figured out he just has to pull out and he could get to everyone's supper LOL After using the tie rings on the puller for awhile I could tie him up and he wouldn't panic anymore. He also panicked if he stepped on his lead and would pull back wildly......I did this with all my horses and let them graze in the yard with their halter on with the lead dragging, none of my horses panic about that but will step back or watch where they put their feet.....the puller eventually quit pulling back when he stepped on his lead because he knew he wasn't restricted and would think about it and step off of it......
    We also have a patience pole, Clinton Anderson sells them but we built one ourselves because they are expensive to buy but cheap to make, I hardly have to put any of our horses on it anymore because they all stand nicely tied now.....
         
        01-03-2013, 01:10 AM
      #47
    Banned
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Thunderspark    
    Have you tried a aussie tie ring, you can get them on Clinton Anderson's site.
    I had a horse that I was told will not tie, he was older and I think the guy didn't want to be bothered to work with him. He would also freak out like that and pull and fall down.
    I got the tie ring and you use a long lead on it. Stay close to watch to make sure they don't get tangled up. As soon as I walked away he would pull back, then he realized that he wasn't stuck there and would stop.....I could tell he was thinking about it. Then he would pull back and stop, I would walk up and pull the lead back up to where it would be if he was tied and he would do the same thing, pull back but because he wasn't being held there he didn't act all stupid about it and would stop. I use the tie rings all the time with my horses at feeding time, my one I have to slip knot it because he figured out he just has to pull out and he could get to everyone's supper LOL After using the tie rings on the puller for awhile I could tie him up and he wouldn't panic anymore. He also panicked if he stepped on his lead and would pull back wildly......I did this with all my horses and let them graze in the yard with their halter on with the lead dragging, none of my horses panic about that but will step back or watch where they put their feet.....the puller eventually quit pulling back when he stepped on his lead because he knew he wasn't restricted and would think about it and step off of it......
    We also have a patience pole, Clinton Anderson sells them but we built one ourselves because they are expensive to buy but cheap to make, I hardly have to put any of our horses on it anymore because they all stand nicely tied now.....
    Yes I have. I mention a couple of times that I have tried methods such as that. He could have cared less. The problem is he does not pull back each and every time. In fact he does it rarely. It is just such an explosion when he does. Thank you though for the information
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        01-03-2013, 01:21 AM
      #48
    Green Broke
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by DriftingShadow    
    Missy May- I started at square one after the incident in June. I have used my hand to simulate being "tied" before, he gives appropriately. I have come at him with jingle bells, opening umbrellas, plastic bags, an air horn, those hands you can throw together to make them clap.. and each and every time he would pull to the end of the rope and step back up quietly. That's what is so nervewracking. I can't MAKE him pull back. He decides when he wants to. And its usually when nothing around him is bothering him/spooking him. Its almost as if he is having a seizure while he's tied. And it has only ever happened while he was tied. I have never seen anything like this in the pasture, under saddle, etc.

    He is hobble broke and he will step all over his lead for hours on end and not give a hoot.. He just goes "oh whoops my head is stuck down here!" and backs up off it. I have even tied him close before on occasion with a tie ring to see if that was the trigger -- and nope. Didnt bother him one bit.
    That is so sad, and I can see where it would be frustrating. You might search publication from/contact a vet school, especially UC Davis. I had a mare w what is loosely called head shaking disease which was a very upsetting experience, and I found a lot of research that they had published on the subject very helpful, almost a "relief" b/c the documents "got down to it" on a research level. You might find something on this condition.
         
        01-03-2013, 07:53 AM
      #49
    Foal
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by DriftingShadow    
    Yes I have. I mention a couple of times that I have tried methods such as that. He could have cared less. The problem is he does not pull back each and every time. In fact he does it rarely. It is just such an explosion when he does. Thank you though for the information
    For whatever it might be worth... I had a horse that did the exact same thing. Tied him 100 (not sure if 100 was the exact number, but you know what I mean) times and he stood quietly. Then all of a sudden flipped out the next time until he broke himself loose. I figured it was a training issue, so I worked with him using all the methods I could find. I thought I had solved the problem and tied him another 100 (or however many) times. All of a sudden he did the same thing again. It scared the crap out of me. I decided I just couldn't reliably tie him if I took him any where, so I just quit tying him. If I took him somewhere and needed to leave him alone I put him in the trailer. When I saddled, groomed, etc. he just ground tied. I actually got a lot of compliments about how he stood to be saddled or whatever. I was still able to do the same things with him that I ever did before, and didn't have to worry about him hurting himself, or worse, another person.
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        01-03-2013, 09:20 AM
      #50
    Yearling
    Muppetgirl is giving great advice as is everyone else! My arab does this from time to time, he does have neurological issues, stemming from being beaten from a colt on up. Not from me obviously, I got him when he was 11 NOT knowing the issues. He is the greatest horse on the ground, and mostly to tie. Then though you think he's having a good day and he FREAKS, explodes, falls over on himself and breaks halters left and right. The vet said we'd just have to take it in stride after working with Charlie and I for two years. The way he explained that made sense- its like popping a fuse. It builds and builds, explodes and the fuse is out, only then to be replaced by a new one. You never really know when it's going to happen unless they have a predictor - not sure that's the right term.

    He did have me start taking videos when I tie him. Hopefully to catch it and we then went through the videos. IF it's neurological, at least in Charlie's case it was. He had little and I mean little signs he was about to blow. I'll have to see if I can find the videos it's barely detectable though. BUT, Charlie would wink or hold one eye tighter so to speak. Always his left eye, he would hold it shut tight then blow up. We came to the conclusion that was the calm reaction from that fuse getting ready to blow then it translated to him freaking out.

    I would see if maybe you can just start taking videos when you tie, maybe you'll catch him in the act and can study it to see if he has a "sign."

    I've tried anything and everything to help him stop just like you have, it IS scary. Groundwork and yielding to pressure have helped. If he's thinking when it happens, he has less of a "freak out" snaps the halter and basically stands there like s*** I did it again, lol. Other times he on the ground fallen over himself. Take patience, and a lot of it. Now knowing I can see it coming for the most part if I'm paying attention I can get out of the way. It's like a "tick" for him. He was on calming medicine, basically mare magic. Being an arab it helped him riding as well, but it lessened the "freak" didn't stop them though.
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