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Mare bucking when moving from trot to canter

6K views 12 replies 9 participants last post by  LadyDreamer 
#1 ·
Hey all!

I have a 16 year old paint mare. She has been through it all. Parades, trails, horse shows, etc. She is sweet as can be most of the time. But if you try to drive her away, she will turn her hindquarters to you and kick at you.

She honestly hasnt been worked with all that much in the past two years or so. But now I have been trying to get her conditioned with lunging, light riding, etc.

She is great at the walk and will transition nicely into a trot without any issues. I noticed this first when lunging. If she is trotting, and you try to get her to pick up the pace just a bit, she will start aggressively bucking. Same as in saddle, she has a very fine line from what she is willing to do (trot-canter= BIG NO NO!)

How can I get her get over this issue and transition nicely into a canter without bucking and/or turning to kick me when lunging?

Also, what is the safest way to go about this situation when she is turned towards me kicking/bucking on the lunge? Letting go of the rope and letting her calm down a bit? Or holding onto the rope and let her just work out the bucks on her own?

And what kind of disciplinary action is acceptable when being kicked at?

Thank you so much for your help!
 
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#2 ·
Her bucking and kicking towards you is refusing to do what you want and basically telling you off.

What I would do is push her forward through the bucks and I would not hesitate to give her a big smack with a whip or training stick for kicking towards you. Make the wrong thing difficult or uncomfortable and the right thing easy. The safest thing to do is push them forward and away from you.

Many horses with time off, especially extended time off, go through an "I don't want to" and "you can't make me" stage. Giving them a refresher course on ground manners and respect usually cures it.

Some horses do buck when going into the canter as feel good bucks or stretching bucks. This doesn't sound like your mare.

Depending on why the horse is bucking, I may shut the horse down and ask immediately again for what I first wanted. That is usually when I deem the bucks as feel good or stretching bucks. It can work for the others but you need to make them work their butt off immediately after you get them stopped bucking and then back to what you wanted right away without any break.
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#3 ·
I forgot to ask, when lunging her, how long do you lunge her, how often do you change directions? If you are having her do mindless circles, more than 2 or 3 without changing directions, she could be getting sour to lunging. Same goes for lunging for an extended period of time or if you lunge her every time you handle her.

Also, if she has been off for a long time, she needs to rebuild and condition her muscles to carry a rider, especially at the canter. Hold off on cantering under saddle for a while and at least until you get her to transition nicely on the lunge line.
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#4 ·
First of all: Check very, very carefully, with a veterinarian, whether there are any underlying health issues that might have developed in your mare - possible back injury, etc. Sometimes a horse says no for good reasons. Horses can't talk, so health problems show up through behaviours which can be misinterpreted as "lack of respect." Something is fishy when a horse trots OK, but is reluctant to canter.

Secondly: In situations where you are 100% sure no health problems exist, and a horse is displaying an unwanted behaviour, don't reward the behaviour by stopping the request or you'll have unwittingly taught your horse that what you want is for it to display that undesirable behaviour. Instead, persist quietly with your requests until it displays the desired behaviour, and then immediately back off your request, and praise, so the horse knows it has hit upon the right response.

Here's a reprinted introduction on basic horse training principles by Tom Roberts. Infobytes like forum posts are not a systematic way to learn about horse training, and it helps to have some really good books by excellent professionals in your library, and to consult them frequently.


This is from the beginning of “Horse Control – The Young Horse” (Griffin Press, Netley, South Australia, 1974) - a horse training manual I highly recommend. If we still had him with us, this is what Tom might post.


TRAINING PROCEDURES:


That will profit you” - “That will profit you not”
Quiet persistence”
End-of-Lesson”, what it means
Old Hat”
Use of voice in training


Few people who set out to train and educate a young horse give any thought to the great difficulties that face the horse.

How many of us setting out to teach him have given serious thought or study of HOW to teach him: how to establish a system of signals or aids that most riders grow up with and accept as being natural, but of which the horse has no knowledge whatsoever?

I am going to ask you a question, and before you read on I would like you to answer it clearly – to yourself.

Question: “Why does a horse stop or go slower if you pull on the reins?” If you answer, “Because it hurts the mouth,” I am sorry to have to break the news to you – you have failed.

But no, I'll give you another chance: “Why do you jump up instantly if you sit on an upturned tack or drawing pin?”

If you answer again: “Because it hurts” - you really do need to read every word in this book!


The horse stops – and you jump up – not just because it hurts, but to stop it hurting. By no means the same thing.

And there isn't any doubt: if jumping up didn't stop the pain, you would try doing something else. So, too, eventually, does the horse. These are not trick questions. If you really believe in and act on the answer you gave to the first, then you think that all you have to do is to hurt your horse's mouth and he will stop.

On the contrary, the important thing is to let him know – to teach him – how, by doing what you want of him, he can avoid any pain, irritation, inconvenience and discomfort the bit (or whip or spur) might otherwise cause. Good trainers do everything they possibly can to avoid hurting the horse or even letting him hurt himself. Our real goal should be never to have to hurt our horse.

Reward and punishment is often cited as the secret of successful horse training and undoubtedly both rewards and punishments have their place. But – we should seldom, if ever, resort to punishment when teaching our horse anything new.

Punishment, when we use it, should be reserved for exceptional occasions. Don't think “Reward and Punishment.”

Encourage and discourage is a better guide, as it drops the term “punishment.” When riding a young horse we alternate from encourage to discourage very frequently and quite often change from discourage to encourage several times in a matter of seconds.

But the term “discourage” still has the drawback that it can include punishment; and we should discard any term that could include punishment as a normal training procedure. Punishment and teaching are “divorced.”

It is to avoid using any expression that could possibly include punishment as a normal teaching procedure that I suggest you think in the terms:


That will profit you – that will profit you not.”


These terms mean exactly – exactly – what they say.

To Profit” is to benefit or gain: to be better off. The profit to the horse can be any reward or encouragement the trainer may think his pupil should receive – and it must, of course, be available to give.

To Profit Not” means that the horse will gain or benefit not at all. Just that. It certainly does not mean that he will suffer a loss or be worse off – as he would be if he were punished.

This is what is so important about these expressions – and why I use them. By no stretch of the imagination can “Profit you not” be construed as punishment.


It consists of withholding any gain, reward, encouragement and profit. That, and only that.




Quiet Persistence

“It will profit you not” means that the horse will not be encouraged to follow a line of conduct other than what we have in mind for him. We withhold any gain – which means we quietly continue with our demands, whatever they may be.


We persist. We quietly persist with our demands.


This gentle discouragement of “quiet persistence” is something that horse seem to find irresistible. Whenever you are in doubt as to what course to follow, mounted or dismounted, revert to “Quiet Persistence.” Your quiet persistence is the real “That will profit you not.” It discourages the horse without punishing him.

Punishment does have its place in the training scheme, with some horses more clearly than with others – but even then it should be used only occasionally. Do not revert to punishment when you are trying to teach the horse something new. It upsets the horse and destroys the calmness so essential to his taking-in a new lesson. So punishments are “out” when teaching any new lesson.


End of Lesson


End of Lesson is the best, most effective and most convenient of all rewards and encouragements.


What End of Lesson means:

When teaching a horse almost anything at all – no matter what it is, “End of Lesson” means a pause, a break, a rest for a while – or even, on some occasions, completely finishing the work for the day at the moment the horse has made or is making progress in a lesson.

At the very instant of the action that constitutes progress, the teacher ends the lesson – for a while, at least.

Ending a lesson constitutes a reward, an encouragement, an incentive to the horse to try to follow and understand what is being taught to him.


The End-of-Lesson procedure is probably the most important procedure in the scheme of horse training.


We use the End-of-Lesson technique from the first day our young horse is yarded and continue using it to the last day of his schooling.

End-of-Lesson is always available for use.

Because it is easy for the horse to understand, it keeps him calm and so leads to the greatest progress. When the horse is calm, the most permanent impressions are made on his mind.

End-of-Lesson is of equal value to the trainer. It keeps him looking for and recognising progress as the horse tries first one thing and then another. He looks for progress to encourage – rather than “stupidity” to punish.
 
#5 ·
Old Hat”

“Old Hat” is another expression I will repeatedly use to indicate the horse's attitude to a previous experience. He (I pretend) says: “Old Hat!” whenever he is asked to do, again, something he has already proved to be not objectionable.

The “Old Hat” technique is literally used in hundreds of ways – as you will read later on. It means we do something (or get the horse to do something) new – and then before anything can go wrong or he becomes upset, we “End-the-Lesson.”

Next time he is in a similar position, he remembers nothing unpleasant resulted from the first occasion, and he remains calm. A few repetitions and he accepts it (whatever it is) as “Old Hat.”

An instance: we separate a foal from its dam for a few moments. Before the foal has time to become very excited at finding itself alone, we put them together again. Tomorrow or on some other occasion, we separate them again and once more put them together after a short period. We do this several times and after a while the foal ceases to worry. “It's 'Old Hat' - nothing to worry about, we'll get together again later on!” seems to be the reaction.

This is a characteristic of the horse. Recognise it and keep it in mind. From it we learn to repeat lessons rather than to prolong them – particularly if what we are doing or getting the horse to do is exciting or frightening to him.



Use of the Voice in Teaching (excerpt)

The use of the voice can be very useful at times to let the horse know when he is on the right track, particularly in the early dismounted work. There are scores of things you do not want him to do on any occasion and he may try quite a number of them. To each attempt you gently say “No,” “No,” and you quietly and gently persist with your demands.

Think and act gently and kindly – for he is trying. Say , “No,” “No,” gently and quietly, but in a manner he could not possibly confuse with your “Purring” (pleasant tone of voice for reinforcing correct behaviour, “That's right, clever boy...” etc).

The voice can convey to him “Approved” or “Not Approved” almost simultaneously with his action, and under all circumstances – mounted or dismounted.

There's no end to the number of things you do NOT want him to do and he may try out a few of them or all of them. To each attempt you should gently indicate to him: “Not that,” “Not that.” Or better still, think, “Not that, Boy;” think gently, think kindly; he is trying.

Most important of all, when he does show the slightest tendency to do the ONE thing you do want, you must instantly change your “tune” and substitute, “That's right,” or “That's better, clever Boy...clever Boy.” Then “End of Lesson” - have a rest.


The really important thing is your ability to show approval or disapproval instantly.


Two seconds later will be too late. Sometimes the youngster will have tried so many things that if your approval is late he will have difficulty in knowing what did please you.

If you use the same purring tone always – and instantly – and only to show approval, you will find he relaxes the instant you begin to use it. When mounted you can FEEL him relax under you, and you'll be able to imagine him thinking: “That's good! Struck it at last. Now, exactly what DID I do to please the man?”



A LESSON IS ANYTHING YOU TEACH YOUR HORSE – GOOD OR BAD

Every experience the young horse has becomes a lesson. If what he learns is useful to us, we like to call it “training”or “education.” But if what he learns is a nuisance or dangerous, we often brand it a “vice.”

(Roberts goes on to describe how people unwittingly form vices in horses by letting up - “Ending-the-Lesson” - at the wrong moment, by creating situations where that can easily occur, by punishing horses, by ill-fitting and painful gear, by expecting instant perfection rather than immediately encouraging small progress in the right direction, thereby confusing the horse, etc.- and what to do about it when this has already happened. And that's only the start of the book – some basics, before meticulously covering safety of horse and handler, age at education, groundwork, lunging, early ridden training, teaching basic dressage, light hand-light mouth, impulsion, traffic, shying, spookiness, and teaching to trailer. More advanced training – higher-level dressage, jumping, etc is covered in the sequel.)



Tom Roberts wrote his books in his 70s, when he was too plagued by knee problems to stand in the ring educating riders or to work with horses himself any longer. Originally British, he had spent his lifetime training horses and riders on several continents, starting with the British army, where he became their youngest ever certified riding instructor aged 16 and worked with many “problem horses”. During the Depression he joined the South Australian Mounted Police and became their chief instructor. He also conducted schools of equitation Australia-wide, judged at the Royal Shows, competed in polo, jumping, dressage, campdrafting etc, and hunted. In 1950 he formed the Dressage Club of South Australia, and he wrote for and edited horse magazines.

Consequently, his books are a treasure trove of a resource for any amateur or professional horse trainer. The 202 pages of systematic training advice go through the vast majority of things we may wish to teach young horses, and trouble-shooting problems; and following this advice results in calm, cooperative, teachable horses who enjoy their work. No short post on a forum is a substitute for this sort of substantial reading. In over 30 years of training horses, we have yet to come across a “problem” horse who is not vastly improved by the methods espoused in this book (and relieved to be rid of its troubles). Roberts is by no means the only person who has written wonderful books to further understanding of animal training – but he is certainly one of the best who ever wrote in Australia.

Franz Mairinger, erstwhile trainer of the Australian Olympic Equestrian Team and Senior Rider of the Spanish Riding School in Vienna, and highly successful jumping rider in A-grade competition, wrote this to Roberts after reading his manuscript: “You combine thorough knowledge and vast experience with your searching mind to produce a highly interesting and readable book: but more than that, you give really sound advice based on the lines of classical teaching. Your advice, with the given examples of how it works, combined with your stress on patience and understanding, makes it a valuable help for any beginner. I am sure, too, that even the experts will find something they have not thought of before. To all those who do not think that they know it all, I warmly recommend this book.”
 
#6 ·
By the way, I am not responsible for the automatic and unremovable hyperlinks that have inserted themselves into the text I have posted, around terms like "reins" and "horse training" - this seems to be some kind of annoying compulsory advertising feature.

These hyperlinks may not show if you are logged on, but I saw them when I'd logged off.
 
#7 ·
At that age you have what you have. Now a good beating might keep it at bay, you may not be big enough or strong enough, much less skilled enough to deliver it. Aggressive behavior isn't acceptable at any age and
The older they get and the more times they get away with it the more dangerous the animal becomes.
For a hobby person like yourself these horse have no place in your barn and for the successful trainers they need to be a cash cow or they will be food like a cow
 
#8 ·
The ideal response to a situation like this depends on the underlying cause. It is important to know your horse well, so you have a better idea of the reason the horse responds the way it does.

For a simple refusal, a push to demand compliance would be the normal response.

If the horse's reaction is a response to pain, however, it would be best to discontinue asking her to canter until the pain issue has been resolved.

If you are unsure of why she is doing this, I would suggest profession help. This may initially be a knowledgeable trainer. It might also include a veterinarian or equine chiropractor.

When riding or lunging, take the horse's conditioning into account. A horse must be in better physical condition to canter well on a small circle than on a large circle. If -- as your description seems to indicate -- your horse is close enough to kick you, the circle you are asking the horse to canter is likely too small for her conditioning.
 
#9 ·
Is it truly a buck? Or is it a gathering of herself to provide impulsion? Do you collect her a bit at the walk and/or trot before asking for the transition? What kind of shape is she in?

I ask all these because in the last 1 to 2 years I've had people bring horses to me with complaints of bucking at the beginning of the canter, and they horse is doing something else.

It's just another possibility to consider.
 
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