The matter of protecting "space". - Page 3
 
 

       The Horse Forum > Training Horses > Horse Training

The matter of protecting "space".

This is a discussion on The matter of protecting "space". within the Horse Training forums, part of the Training Horses category

     
    LinkBack Thread Tools
        09-18-2009, 04:29 PM
      #21
    Guest
    G&K
    My friend did not have much ability to teach - as you say is often the case. My friend's knowledge came from his father - a real old fashioned horse dealer from the late 19th century.
    But the point I was trying to make was that very occasionally my friend would take a liking to a horse - and he met with 1000s during his lifetime of working with them.
    For any horse my friend came to like he changed his approach. He stopped being the professional and turned into the soft amateur.
    I find the same with natural riders. Very often they can't teach riding.

    Barry
         
    Sponsored Links
    Advertisement
     
        09-18-2009, 04:41 PM
      #22
    Yearling
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Barry Godden    
    For any horse my friend came to like he changed his approach. He stopped being the professional and turned into the soft amateur.
    I find the same with natural riders. Very often they can't teach riding.

    Barry
    Yep, things sure change when your heart strings are being tugged........
         
        09-18-2009, 08:06 PM
      #23
    Started
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Barry Godden    
    G&K
    My friend did not have much ability to teach - as you say is often the case. My friend's knowledge came from his father - a real old fashioned horse dealer from the late 19th century.
    But the point I was trying to make was that very occasionally my friend would take a liking to a horse - and he met with 1000s during his lifetime of working with them.
    For any horse my friend came to like he changed his approach. He stopped being the professional and turned into the soft amateur.
    I find the same with natural riders. Very often they can't teach riding.

    Barry
    I think that there is a difference between "kinds" of professionals. Professional competitors, it would seem, require the parnership that the amateur strives for, or else there would not be spectacular dressage tests, jumping rounds, roping times, and racing records that we have. Without any partnership, I doubt the horse would work his heart out as so many do, no matter how well trained he is.

    The pro trainer, however, is in the business of starting and training horses. At the end of they day, most of the horses he has ridden are not his own property. Any partnership he builds with the animal won't transfer to the client unless the client follows up. One can communicate effectively with the horse, make requests and get responses, and still hold the horse's heart at arm's length, so to speak. Pro trainers inevitably meet "special" horses who they do form attachments to, and are certainly capable of bonding with horses, but for the sake of convenience and business, it is more efficient to not bond too strongly with client's horses. Perhaps after many years of training thousands of horses it is easier to work through the emotion associated with a trainer's personal horses and still get done what needs done, and so their horsemanship isn't hindered.

    If one of my horses is sick, or hurt beyond a superficial scratch or rub, I'm a nervous wreck. I almost can't function. I'm a little better if it's my sister's horse who needs attention. I know him well, I've ridden him many times, but he isn't my horse, so I can keep a cooler head. I can be downright helpful in an emergency with a strange horse. I think there is some correlation here, between dealing with health emergencies and training difficulties. The vet can be compared to the trainer.

    I think Milo hit it dead on comparing dealing with horses to dealing with kids. I'm no parent, but my own parents sometimes comment that the way I deal with horsey "backtalk" and "temper tantrums" is much the same as good parenting. Too much discipline and too little explicit love and you get problems. All love and no discipline and you get a whole different set of problems, no less difficult to handle. The trick is to walk the line, and good horsemen and women try.
         
        09-18-2009, 09:42 PM
      #24
    Yearling
    Professional v. Amateur....

    Interesting comparison but I think it's a very grey area in terms of how you equate it to peoples' knowledge, experience, ambitions, etc. You can have incredibly knowledgeable amateurs who have had horses for years, are very good trainers, but have not chosen to go into the horse business and they own a horse or two only for their own pleasure. There are amateurs who buy a horse, find it doesn't work, buy another, and another, and don't see it has an animal they have a relationship with it at all but rather as a piece of property they can happily sell if need be. Then there are professionals who are making money in the horse business, but shouldn't be because they are eedjits and don't have the faintest of clues. There are also professionals who may be training and turning around youngsters, or running a stable, or teaching riding, or whatever, who have their own horses whom they are very attached to and would be totally devastated if something happened to those horses.

    Like I said, it is all very grey.
         
        09-19-2009, 08:26 AM
      #25
    Guest
    Professional v Amateur.
    I found myself talking to a young woman of 12 this morning who owns a very nice, but very sparky, Welsh Cob. The girl is a typical stick on regardless pony club rider. She and the pony make a good pair. Just before she recently left the local young riders academy to come to our yard, the youngster was told to fit a gag bit to her pony to replace the snaffle. The youngster was not told how to use the gag. Indeed she was not told that her real problem was to stop allowing her pony to speed up. She has urgently to learn how to keep control of the speed of the pony other than by stamping on the brakes when it is going too fast in the arena. The riding centre professional, a registered instructor and a knowledgeable experienced trainer of youngsters obviously had her priorities which were to all the riders in the class and not just to this one youngster. No doubt she had significant control over the centre’s schoolmaster ponies but not over the ponies belonging to individual riders. So the professional was prepared to fit this young woman’s pony up with a bit which is proving to be far to harsh for this young girl. The youngster’s hands aren’t soft enough and what’s more no one has yet taught her the principles behind bitting and the difference between symptoms and causes. As a result the pony is now misbehaving, especially in the jumping arena. There is now some remedial work to be done with the pony. The youngster, well, she needs to learn a lot more. She is intelligent and I am sure she will.


    I find when asking a professional trainer to look at my horse I have to very carefully highlight the problem I want to find a cure for (eg DiDi’s snatching down). I watch to see if the instructor is listening during the briefing, indeed, sometimes I have written down the salient points so as to pre-brief them. If the expert can come up with some ideas then good, I’ll pay the fee willingly. If they can’t then I’ll still pay but not quite so willingly. But I never forget that DiDi is my horse; she is my responsibility, and my agreement is needed for many types of remedial work - especially that of fitting a different bit, or saddle or some form of tiedown. Undoubtedly many professional trainers know more than me but their criteria for making judgements are different. I never forget that difference when making a decision about my horse which is trusting meto make the right decision for her.

    PS Similar thinking is called for when dealing with vets.
         
        09-19-2009, 09:27 AM
      #26
    Yearling
    Aye, but those are judgment calls you'd make when asking *anyone* for advice about your horse, regardless of whether you are paying them or not. Maybe I've gotten cynical, but I have found that many horse trainers do not have knowledge any better or more specialized than an experienced and knowledgeable non-horse professional. The difference is that the professional horse trainer has decided to make that their living, while the expert amateur would rather do something other than deal with people's horse problems. The professional might have more time for you, because you're paying them for it, or if your horse has serious behavioural problems they might be more willing to ride it since they are getting paid for it, while your mate would rather not risk it for free.

    I'm not saying you shouldn't go to a trainer. Of course you should if you are a beginner/intermediate, or you find yourself unable to muddle through a problem yourself or faced with a dangerous problem you can't handle. We all had to learn how to ride and train from someone and unless you are very very lucky, you probably had to pay for that privilege. But I wouldn't classify someone as a "horse professional" and then use that as a basis to *assume* that they have more knowledge and expertise than someone designated as an amateur. I'd make that decision on a case by case basis.

    That said, there are trainers with that kind of specialized expertise and very high levels of training, I.e. Someone who can train horses and riders for FEI dressage, four star events, things of that nature.
         
        09-19-2009, 03:08 PM
      #27
    Foal
    Great topic Berry! I like your ideas of training as a partnership. Demanding a horse to obey you is not training, it is slavery!
         
        10-08-2009, 10:10 AM
      #28
    Guest
    The Question of Space. Part 2.

    I posted the original article on this thread and queried the commonly accepted principle of allowing both the horse and the handler personal inviolable space. I explained my own position ie that I don’t allow my horse to have personal space - I claim the right to enter her space at any time. In return, being a fairly stocky male, I allow the horse to come into my space - so long as she accepts that she is to be gentle with me. I welcome licks and nudges and only reject uninhibited violent snout nudges. My horse somehow must come to understand that I am frail compared with her, yet at the same time I must not appear to her to be weak. A mare especially must treat me like she would her foal. She must not kick me, bite me nor stand on my foot.


    In the same way my Rottweiler must not show any aggression not only towards me, but also my family and my friends. It is interesting to watch him, because whenever we have a visitor - he will come up to say hello but he moves off immediately he has recognized the visitor and after the visitor has given him a stroke in greeting. Few people ignore Rocky, he is a bit too big for that. He is only restrained by me from time to time with a hand on his collar but if I hold him back, he then becomes even more inquisitive of the visitor. Whilst we speak here of dogs and not horses, the principles of handling the two domesticated animals are similar. My dog must come to trust all humans - even if he can’t.


    Now this is all tricky stuff because every human is individual and so is every horse. I am confident that, after reading various comments in this thread, I am not going to change my attitude towards my own horse. She is to be polite to all and sundry ie absolutely every one that comes near her, visitor, fellow barn mate and owner, professional or visiting rider. Some will touch her and she must take that touch as a greeting. Some visitors will perhaps stand back very often because they are nervous of horses in general. DiDi is to stand still regardless. I certainly don’t want her frightened of humans and neither do I want humans frightened of her. I can’t expect any non horsey people to know the rules about space, so if they do put a hand out in friendship between species then DiDi must not reject their gesture. Rejection is not appropriate.


    Now it is true that on occasions with me personally, she pushes her luck. On such occasions, I will respond to her with a slightly raised voice but I never ever push her away in such circumstances. Elsewhere I might move her away with my own body weight or with pointed fingers but I never ever shoo her off. Luckily I do have the privilege of owning a horse with a very kind temperament. If I value that characteristic in her then I must be careful not to dissuade her from trusting me by her getting too close to me. By getting close to me, she is trusting me not to hurt her.

    On the ground we often have conversations with third parties; my standing there with DiDi’s head, literally, looking over my shoulder. I hold her by me, she stands still, whilst waiting for me to stop gossiping. Sometimes with folks I know well enough to trust, I might even let go of her. She still stands there and becomes part of the conversation.


    There are numerous occasions when I must perforce get close to her.
    When I reach under her belly to reach for the straps to her day rug, then she must stand.
    If a third party is occasionally asked to collect her from the field, to be collected then she must stand.
    If the vet is to put a needle in her neck, she must stand.
    If she is to be clipped out she must stand.
    She must not fear that any human gets close to her and “invades” her space. But that favoured human
    Must approach her in the correct manner and with respect for the fact that DiDi is permitting the proximity.



    What is more difficult for me is to get her to stand even when there is a sudden noise. If she does startle then she must instinctively move away from me and not closer to me. But I have no chance to persuade her of this requirement unless she respects not so much my space as my frailty. I used to watch my horse Joe with children. He was incredibly good with them. He knew they were “baby” humans. Yet that same horse, who was so gentle with a frail child could act like a thug towards a clumsy rider, who should have known better. In contrast, over in Joe the Wonder Horse (Famous Horses) I wrote a story called “Joe’s Good Deed”. Joe knew that man was frightened of him, yet he stood still, so as to give the man confidence to come close.


    One has to take a personal view on this matter. The Professional will with good reason say: “Keep your distance - you never know”.
    The Amateur like me says that it is the responsibility of the owner to condition the horse to respect not the human’s space but the human body. Of course, this means that the Amateur has to believe that the horse has more brain than mostly it is credited with. Similarly it is my responsibility to train my Rottweiler to be civil to all humans - good and bad.

    And if ever I catch another human shouting at my horse because that human has not had the civility and patience to ask my horse politely to move away then I get very upset. Because that single loud mouthed shout, or wave of the arms or even worse behaviour, can ruin a horse’s mental attitude towards all humans. Man is the horse’s prime predator and we must constantly spend time allaying the horse’s innate (and justified) fears of us.



    The horse must trust me; I must trust the horse. DiDi shows me her trust by allowing me to get close to her; I show my trust by putting myself within close proximity to her. I am unrepentant. My space is her space.


    Barry G
         
        10-08-2009, 06:53 PM
      #29
    Yearling
    Quote:
    Now this is all tricky stuff because every human is individual and so is every horse. I am confident that, after reading various comments in this thread, I am not going to change my attitude towards my own horse. She is to be polite to all and sundry ie absolutely every one that comes near her, visitor, fellow barn mate and owner, professional or visiting rider. Some will touch her and she must take that touch as a greeting. Some visitors will perhaps stand back very often because they are nervous of horses in general. DiDi is to stand still regardless. I certainly don’t want her frightened of humans and neither do I want humans frightened of her. I can’t expect any non horsey people to know the rules about space, so if they do put a hand out in friendship between species then DiDi must not reject their gesture. Rejection is not appropriate
    EXCEPT.......... (this is a true story my horse, my husband.......)You probably won't like the outcome but quite frankly we don'tmind. George was trying to protect hubby. George has never done this to anyone prior or since.

    I had the day off, so I figured on hauling the poop trailer out to unload it. With all the rain of late, the yard is ankle deep in mud everywhere, and the spot where the trailer's parked is deeper yet. I've kept the load tarped, but discovered that the tarp was almost eaten through from the bacteria in the load. Hence, the whole load was completely soaked & weighed triple what it usually does. I tried to pull it out anyway, but it sank completely to the frame in 2 seconds flat.
    Out with the wheelbarrow & start shoveling ...

    2 & 1/2 hours later I had half the trailer unloaded & spread out in the far paddock. Tried pulling the trailer out again ... uh-uh. More shoveling. An hour later there was less than 1/4 load in the trailer (which still probably weighed more than a full load if the tarp hadn't leaked), still couldn't budge the trailer. I gave up & called a tow truck. While I waited I figured I may as well continue emptying the trailer. Only took another 20 or 30 wheelbarrow loads anyway ... By time the tow truck showed up ( 2 hours later), the trailer was empty, I was soaked, there was more mud & goo in that yard than I've ever seen, and I was somewhat less than my usual sunny self.
    The driver announced straight away that he only took cash for farm calls, and asked me how money I had on me. I suppressed the urge to pinch his head off, and instead pulled a small wad of drenched 20's from my jeans. He looked as though I'd peed on them, and looked around as though he were searching for some other excuse. When he finally got out of his truck & walked to where the pickup & trailer were, he scoffed & said that his truck wouldn't pull "that much weight". I calmly showed him there was nothing in the trailer anymore, and assured him the combined weight of the truck & trailer was les than his tow truck (BIG tow truck, lots of chrome). He still refused, saying that had he known I wanted him to "crawl around in the mud" he would have refused the call. By the way, the entire pickup is still sitting on solid ground, but with the trailer mired in the mud all I did was spin trying to move. I told the driver all I needed was to get winched a mere 2 feet; with the $75 callout I figured that worked out to about $3 an inch.
    After another 15 minutes of arguing I finally lost it. I yelled at this idiot to get his butt back in his truck & leave before I tossed him over the fence. Suddenly he decides that just refusing to do his friggin' job wasn't enough, now he decided to make the leap from lazy lout to flaming idiot.
    He started making faces at me and generally acting like a kid. If he was trying to make me go over the edge, it worked. I screamed at him to go, leave, take off, beat it. All he did was laugh, then stuck out his hand & demand his $75. I finally told him to leave or I was calling the cops to have him removed. He raised his hands in a sort of mock gesture & laughed "Oooh, la-de-da! Big tough guy, eh?" Just about the time I began to think, "This can't be happening, it has to be a bad dream", I realised he was backing towards the gate of the front paddock where George & Kooter stood mesmerized by all the yelling.
    Somewhere in George's system must lay an enzyme that signals the adrenalin dam in him. When that call comes in, nothing in George's way is safe. That tow truck driver was in George's way; he was also now within reach. As the driver waved his hands, he took one more step backward towards the gate. We already know how protective George can be, and what a sensitive soul he is. I guess he put 2 & 2 together, figured this guy was the reason I was so upset, and now he was in a spot that George could "help". All of a sudden George lunged forward with his mouth wide open & ears pinned against his neck and connected on the driver's right shoulder hard enough to drop the guy to the ground. He started to yelp & scrambled a good 20 feet across the ground on his hands & knees trying to get away from what, he hadn't a clue. When he discovered it was a horse that bit him, his eyes almost bugged out of his head. "That thing BIT me!" he screamed. "Yeah" I said, "and if you ain't gone soon I'm going to let him outta there!" You've never seen anyone get gone so fast!
    So George got a real big neck rub, a cookie & an apple. Yeah, I know I shouldn't reward him for biting someone, but I swear that horse knew exactly what he was doing. Whether he figured he was defending me, or what, I'm not sure. I figured he'd be a handful to settle down after, but he just stood there with a sly look ... as if to say "****, I'm good!"
    ****, I love that horse!,
         
        10-08-2009, 07:14 PM
      #30
    Yearling
    Awesome story, dude.
         

    Quick Reply
    Please help keep the Horse Forum enjoyable by reporting rude posts.
    Message:
    Options

    Register Now

    In order to be able to post messages on the The Horse Forum forums, you must first register.

    Already have a Horse Forum account?
    Members are allowed only one account per person at the Horse Forum, so if you've made an account here in the past you'll need to continue using that account. Please do not create a new account or you may lose access to the Horse Forum. If you need help recovering your existing account, please Contact Us. We'll be glad to help!

    New to the Horse Forum?
    Please choose a username you will be satisfied with using for the duration of your membership at the Horse Forum. We do not change members' usernames upon request because that would make it difficult for everyone to keep track of who is who on the forum. For that reason, please do not incorporate your horse's name into your username so that you are not stuck with a username related to a horse you may no longer have some day, or use any other username you may no longer identify with or care for in the future.

    User Name:
    Password
    Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
    Password:
    Confirm Password:
    Email Address
    Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
    Email Address:

    Log-in

    Human Verification

    In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.


    Old Thread Warning
    This thread is more than 90 days old. When a thread is this old, it is often better to start a new thread rather than post to it. However, If you feel you have something of value to add to this particular thread, you can do so by checking the box below before submitting your post.

    Thread Tools

    Similar Threads
    Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
    Are trail rides "fun" or "work" for your horse? riccil0ve Horse Training 41 10-17-2009 08:28 PM
    Clinton Anderson videos: "Gaining Respect & Control 1-2-3" and "Leads & Lead Changes" Velvetgrace Tack and Equipment Classifieds 5 09-18-2009 07:54 PM
    Definitions of "Green" "Started" "Broke" etc... Horse Hippie Horse Training 12 08-31-2009 04:00 PM
    16.5" "The Liberty" DK MonoFlap Jumping Saddle - CUSTOM TO FIT ANY HORSE! EhLysa Tack and Equipment Classifieds 0 11-01-2008 08:47 PM
    Does .5" on a seat REALLY matter? appylover31803 Horse Tack and Equipment 15 10-02-2008 08:35 PM



    All times are GMT -4. The time now is 11:45 AM.


    Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.5
    Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
    Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.6.0