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Motionless mounting

This is a discussion on Motionless mounting within the Horse Training forums, part of the Training Horses category

     
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        07-25-2009, 03:49 PM
      #21
    Trained
    I don't see much wrong with video. When I lunge my horse, the line is clipped to a lunge attachment, that attaches to both sides of her mouth. She responds well and isn't lunge-sour or any heavier-mouthed than she was when I got her because of it.

    I, however, refuse to mount from the ground unless I absolutely have too. No matter how you mount, you are still pulling on the saddle, wrenching the horses back. Some may not be wrenching as hard as others, but the action is still there.

    And for the two that are very opposed to movement being the punishment, it is a very logical one. Like the woman said, you make the right thing easy and the wrong thing hard. It's much more work to trot in circles than it is to stand there. If the horse decides to move off while mounting because IT wanted to, I'm going to make it MY idea and make that horse move. It's the same idea for teaching a horse to be caught. If a horse walks or runs away from you while you're trying to catch it, chase them away. They are walking away to avoid the work, so then I make them work harder. If a horse dares to turn it's back on me while I'm trying to catch it, that horse will run and run until it is ready to be caught. You can't make the horse stand still, so making it move is the only option.
         
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        07-25-2009, 05:35 PM
      #22
    Banned
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by riccil0ve    
    . You can't make the horse stand still, so making it move is the only option.
    I certainly can. I can easily control the horse and still mount. As for mounting blocks?? I would look pretty stupid running miles of bush trail with a mounting block strapped to his side. Nature calls for both Rio and I and I have to dismount to clean up after him and for myself so mounting from the ground is required. I run public trails at time through the city and carry a dust pan that I scoop the poop up and dispose of it. Other then tracks I don't want anyone to know I have passed this way.
    If my guy can't stand the strain of me mounting then he is not the horse for me. People have been mounting from the ground ever since man learned to ride in the first place.
         
        07-25-2009, 07:04 PM
      #23
    Trained
    I said I wouldn't mount from the ground unless I absolutely had to. Obviously you do, but I don't, and not everybody does. Of course my horse mounts from the ground, from both sides, from any object. The filly I'm training will learn to do the same. But I prefer to use a block.

    The sentence you quoted was referring to catching, not mounting. I'm just saying it does make sense to make the horse work. If the horse wants to move, it's going to move, but it's going to be MY idea. Since the horse will have to do what I want it to do anyway, it'll find it much easier to stand.
         
        07-25-2009, 07:29 PM
      #24
    Weanling
    Once again, my point is being missed. Its funny that I'm the one that always gets slammed for being anti "NH". When I work with a horse, I expect more than obedience. If a horse doesn't want to be caught, I will prove myself a worthy leader rather than just make it too hard not to be caught. Honestly, I used to chase horses for not wanting to come to me, what I found is that the horse would be caught, but out of defeat, not out of actually looking forward to working with me. So sure, it does work, if you are satisfied with just having an obedient horse. The horse can evolve from this, it can be done, but there is a much more solid, faster way to achieve the same results without the undue stress on the horse of being chased.

    As far as mounting, what you are making the horse do is always imprinting that upon the horse, not only mentally, but also physically. Standing for mounting isn't something that the horse has to do or it will be punished, it is something that the horse should want to do so that I can help it feel better further through riding and eventually, in turn, that horse will help me. If that horse isn't able to be calm and willing when working with me to learn mounting, then there is something in the relationship that I have left out. The horse in the video wasn't calm at all. It was obedient to the commands, but was very nervous while doing them. A horses first priority is safety, second is comfort, that horse did not feels safe.

    As far as block vs. ground, I always use a block when one is available, but have been in the situation more often than not that one was not available. In that case its my responsibility to know how to mount in the way that is best for the horse.
         
        07-25-2009, 07:36 PM
      #25
    Weanling
    Watched a Larry Trocha trainning video on Youtube about teaching the horse standing while mounting. He said that if you were standing on the ground, the horse moves, then to back them up while you are on the ground. However, if you are in the saddle, then to back them up while you are in the saddle. He was very clear in this instructions on all videos that he has.

    Also, after viewing your link, everything looks small, I cannot make it bigger.
         
        07-25-2009, 08:14 PM
      #26
    Trained
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by FlitterBug    
    Once again, my point is being missed. Its funny that I'm the one that always gets slammed for being anti "NH". When I work with a horse, I expect more than obedience. If a horse doesn't want to be caught, I will prove myself a worthy leader rather than just make it too hard not to be caught. Honestly, I used to chase horses for not wanting to come to me, what I found is that the horse would be caught, but out of defeat, not out of actually looking forward to working with me. So sure, it does work, if you are satisfied with just having an obedient horse. The horse can evolve from this, it can be done, but there is a much more solid, faster way to achieve the same results without the undue stress on the horse of being chased.

    As far as mounting, what you are making the horse do is always imprinting that upon the horse, not only mentally, but also physically. Standing for mounting isn't something that the horse has to do or it will be punished, it is something that the horse should want to do so that I can help it feel better further through riding and eventually, in turn, that horse will help me. If that horse isn't able to be calm and willing when working with me to learn mounting, then there is something in the relationship that I have left out. The horse in the video wasn't calm at all. It was obedient to the commands, but was very nervous while doing them. A horses first priority is safety, second is comfort, that horse did not feels safe.

    As far as block vs. ground, I always use a block when one is available, but have been in the situation more often than not that one was not available. In that case its my responsibility to know how to mount in the way that is best for the horse.

    Hmm. My horse is more than obedient. But just because the particular horse in the video was nervous, that doesn't mean all horses will be nervous using the same technique. The technique itself is still a good one, and it's the trainer's responsibility to inspire confidence in the animal. So what if that trainer didn't? That's the trainer's fault, it does not necessarily reflect the outcome of her technique.

    As far as chasing the horse away, I've never found any horse to come to me in defeat. The chasing away is very much the Monty Roberts "Join Up," in that the horse CHOOSES to be with you, to work with you, rather than to work without you.

    I am curious how YOU would train your horse to mount, and to be caught.
         
        07-25-2009, 08:53 PM
      #27
    Banned
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by riccil0ve    
    I am curious how YOU would train your horse to mount, and to be caught.

    Is this a post on how to mount your horse??l or how to catch one that runs from you??
         
        07-26-2009, 01:50 AM
      #28
    Trained
    Haha, mounting. I just consider the whole pushing your horse away part similar in both situations. Another poster had said they use a different method, and I wanted to know what it is.
         
        07-26-2009, 08:34 AM
      #29
    Weanling
    I would be happy to answer those questions. I would also like to let everyone know that the reason that I come to these theads is not to provoke debate, but instead to make people curious enough just to look a little bit deeper into what their situation. To often, we look at the problem as how it appears to us, instead of the underlying reasons. To truly solve any issue, we have to fix things at their source. If you had read my entire previous post, I did say that horses can be calm and achieve the true meaning from the other methods, but it does not work well for all horses and there is a different way to get there.

    I am using the horse in the video because that is the one that we can all see. My process that I would take to mounting that horse would start on the ground. The horse had all of the issues that I mentioned long before she tried to mount it. To skip to mounting without addressing these issues is just asking for a future problem under saddle. Sure, you can, and I have worked through these issues in the saddle, however we would be doing a lot of back tracking, fixing the problems as we see them, just hoping that the original source of the problem went away as a byproduct.
    The horse in the video was very disengaged through the hind end, the pelvis was tipped forward, weak abdominals, bracing in the lower neck, head up in the air. The horse was also nervous. A horses main defense is their flight mechanism, when this is compromised, then they will become even more defensive just as a matter of self preservation. Adding the weight of a rider will compromise that even further. Given that the horse was still not letting down her defenses mentally shows that she is still not completely on board with the capabilities of the hands that she is in. If I was in her position, I would want to walk off too. We also have to remember that horses are masters of disguise. They have to be 80 to 90% lame before they actually show signs of it. This means that many horses have underlying issues affecting their balance and weight distribution on each of their legs. Once again something that would be compromised by a rider. Horses are also the most forgiving and pleasing animals that I have ever met, which means that they will compromise themselves to get away from the pressure and do things for the person without showing any signs of discomfort.
    I would start with ground work, beginning with simple relaxation and trust exercises. Once the horse feels safe, they will then start to work on their comfort. Lots of hand walking, ponying, lunging, long reining, all of this will contribute to the horse learning better self carriage. With proper training, a person can enhance this and encourage the horse to use the hind legs better, use opposing muscles equally, and release the topline. All of this can be done without the weight of a rider. This means that once the horse is ready, all they have to learn to do is balance with the weight of the rider on their back. By now the person would already establish more trust from the horse and could move onto mounting. Where I proceed very similar to mom2pride here, teaching the horse to bring you the saddle. Once they figure out the position, I wait until the are completely relaxed and comfortable with the idea (although in reality any claustrophobic or uncertain issues around the back/midsection will be resolved before this point). If they move, then I will repeat, but be very aware of weight distribution, even from a block, since that will throw off the horse, especially a greeny. Any movement out of balance is only encouraging that holding pattern, mentally or physically. It takes a lot of focus, concentration, and training for the rider to be able to recognize signs undersaddle, to the point where it is no longer the horses job to carry you around, but rather your job to teach the horse. When you take these things into consideration, the horse becomes more willing, more pleasing, and looking for work because it actually feels good.
    By the time I get to this point, the lunging isn't punishment, and why should it be? I want the horse to enjoy moving. I can move their feet just as effectively in a mental state just by pushing them forward in a walk, the only time I ever push out of a walk is when a horse makes any kind of rude or disrespectful gesture towards me, more as a herd behavior rather than a "do that and you have to run". They usually won't even run then, just kinda move away like they would from another horse and keep walking. This is the same method for catching that I have used on everything from horses that had just shut humans out of the picture, to dangerous horses, to terrified horses, to completely feral horses. Being caught is a mind set, not just putting on a halter. Being able to halter is something that comes along with catching the mind.
    So, to get back to the original question, sure those methods will work and for a very healthy horse with a solid trust in humans, they should work very successfully. However, I always just like to keep in mind the "why" behind the problem. Just because a horse does something doesn't mean that it is completely accepting of the idea, just simply "giving to the pressure".

    Also to add, what I mentioned are just things I would do, I didn't go into nearly the detail in which I would do these things or what I would look for while doing them. Many horses get by find without this, but many of what I work with are the "bottom of the barrel" horses that most people have already given up on. These horses have been there done that, and their relationship with people has to be proven to be for their benefit if they are to be willing participants. Well, I gotta go feed, that's all I have in me for this morning.
         
        07-27-2009, 07:22 PM
      #30
    Showing
    I just want to say that I used this technique only a few times on my kids. It only took a few times for them to get it. We are now progressed out of the round pen and arena and onto the trails. They both stand well for mounting from a block or with my Hubby helping me (yes I am one of those older ladies who need a boost). I am just starting on working with a bit. I had been working with a bitless bridle. I don't agree with popping them with a bit to stop them from walking forward. They should just know that it is not acceptable to walk off when someone mounts and they must stay stopped until the cue is given to walk on.
    Maybe I am off on my training techniques but I feel a horse should know what is expected of it during the mounting process. Its one of the few times when you are at a disadvantage and can be seriously hurt or left to walk home if they aren't taught properly. I also absolutely hate when a horse walks off as soon as butt hits saddle. I see this way to often and people let the horse get away with it.
    I admit I am new to training green horses. I did find this technique to work very well for me and mine. For those who disagree with it, do whatever gets you down the trail

    ETA- I want to add that I am training 2 three year olds who have been with me since they were born. I have done all the training that has been done to them. I know what they are capable of and what they aren't. They trust me and are very willing to learn. They have never been abused or ill treated.
         

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