Moving Forward? - Page 3
 
 

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Moving Forward?

This is a discussion on Moving Forward? within the Horse Training forums, part of the Training Horses category

     
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        11-23-2009, 08:34 PM
      #21
    Started
    Point to Point exercises do not bribe the horse, it motivates him....there is a difference. If you feel the desire to, go back and read the article I posted in the NH section of the forum titled "Bribe vs. Bonus." That will explain everything and how horses won't get food aggresive, either.
         
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        11-23-2009, 08:35 PM
      #22
    Trained
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by MacabreMikolaj    
    I enjoy certain aspects of natural horsemanship, but to be honest, I expect my horse to do something because I asked him, not because I bribed him. She gets 23 hours a day to wallow in luxury, being fed the choicest hay and grasses, enjoying random treats and constant scratches. She can darn well suck it up and listen to me for the brief hour I actually ask her to do something aside from eat and poop.

    I also have zero desire for my already food obsessive filly to start attacking fence lines in hopes of treats. She gets scratches, my voice and my boot removed from her ass when she does something good. I'm sure your method can work wonders, but it's not a method I feel I should have any obligation to perform. My filly already has a very high opinion of herself without learning she never has to do a thing if she doesn't get a treat. I understand what you're saying about the scratches, but quite frankly, I'd be tickled pink to see you come down here and convince Jynx that getting scratched is totally worth jogging for five minutes.

    I can understand your way of thinking, but considering it was that exact way of thinking that turned her into such a dangerously spoiled animal, I'm loath to follow that path.
    Amen sister! Hallelujelah!!!
         
        11-24-2009, 03:55 AM
      #23
    Showing
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by MacabreMikolaj    
    I enjoy certain aspects of natural horsemanship, but to be honest, I expect my horse to do something because I asked him, not because I bribed him. She gets 23 hours a day to wallow in luxury, being fed the choicest hay and grasses, enjoying random treats and constant scratches. She can darn well suck it up and listen to me for the brief hour I actually ask her to do something aside from eat and poop.

    I also have zero desire for my already food obsessive filly to start attacking fence lines in hopes of treats. She gets scratches, my voice and my boot removed from her ass when she does something good. I'm sure your method can work wonders, but it's not a method I feel I should have any obligation to perform. My filly already has a very high opinion of herself without learning she never has to do a thing if she doesn't get a treat. I understand what you're saying about the scratches, but quite frankly, I'd be tickled pink to see you come down here and convince Jynx that getting scratched is totally worth jogging for five minutes.

    I can understand your way of thinking, but considering it was that exact way of thinking that turned her into such a dangerously spoiled animal, I'm loath to follow that path.
    *CLAPS HANDS* You have to find whatever works for you.
         
        11-24-2009, 12:14 PM
      #24
    Yearling
    LMAO Moki I love the honesty and frankness in your posts...but no, I see setting up cookies everywhere turning into a very bad thing for Jynx. I couldn't believe the change in her once she realised there actually WAS a consequence for lagging and slowing from the trot before you asked...that was the best I've seen her move with you on her! I think you'll do just fine with the crop and Jynx will drop her princess attitude with it same as she did with everything else - she's insanely smart and I don't see you needing a crop for more than a week or two til she figures out moving is the more comfortable thing to do!
         
        11-24-2009, 12:21 PM
      #25
    Trained
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by SavvyHearts    


    Hitting the horse on the rump with reins or a whip or spurring them in the sides will work, but it's called a quick fix. You want your horse to want to trot when you want them to...not to be forced to when you want to :)
    if its such a quick fix, then why is my horse super responsive all the time even though I havent used a crop on him in years ? You can't really force a horse to do anything...they get 2 options, one makes their life easier [to do what you want] & the other makes their life harder. If you are consistent you & your horse will be on the same page & life in general will be a lot easier
         
        11-24-2009, 12:43 PM
      #26
    Yearling
    Wait whoa...am I reading this right? You want me to bribe my horse into wanting to trot by using cookies?! How do you carry on once you're out of cookies or past the "training" stage?

    If I make what they want to do harder for them than what I'm asking to do, sooner or later they're going to want to do what I'm telling them. Using cookies makes NO sense in my mind because in the end they're allowed to stop to eat it and that's what she's wanting to do...stop. No no, once swift tap on the tookis and magically picking up her walk/trot is a non-issue.
         
        11-24-2009, 12:58 PM
      #27
    Showing
    EveningShadows, that's what had me a little confused as well, and perhaps Savvyhearts or Spirit would be able to clarify for us. My concern, I guess, is that the horse would associate a certain point and/or stopping being the "good thing" they did to earn the reward, not the walk/trot/canter they did to get to that point. In their minds, they got to a certain place, they got to stop and have a treat. "Place+stop=treat?" I just personally can't connect the two. I'd be afraid of Denny associating the stop or place with a treat, or a certain place meaning he gets to rest. He's already started that; my lessee sometimes stops at a certain place in the arena to talk to me or to get instruction, and after she's done that a few times, he starts to lag and anticipate a halt at that place.
    I'm also curious about the progression in that training method - once you have the horse willingly cantering from point A to point B, how do you translate that to doing a dressage test? Jumping a course? Doing any schooling for a long stretch of time?
    I'm really curious.. if this method does indeed work, then hey I've learned something and can add it to my "training toolbox" for when I run across a horse that doesn't respond to my "ask, tell, demand" method.
    Thanks in advance!!
    Oh... if this is completely off topic, I can make my own new topic for it... Macabre and mods, could you let me know if this discussion should be moved to a new topic? It's kinda off the OP's subject, but not far..
         
        11-24-2009, 07:00 PM
      #28
    Started
    That's easy to clarify :) Ok, I'll use a dressage test situation as my example. So, a rider has a lazy horse...to get the horse to WANT to go forward, the rider walks to a corner and stops. The longer it took the horse to get there, or the harder it was to get the horse to walk, the LONGER she lets him stay...this does NOT reward laziness, it creates incentive...the rider is driving home the point of "See, it's not so bad to go where I asked you to." Walk to the next corner and stop. Repeat that until the horse has more forward motion. The rider can then walk past corner 1 and stop at corner 2. Then repeat that at the trot and canter. The horse might even OFFER to trot or canter, in which case the rider would absolutely want to take it.

    So once our rider has the horse going forward, she can start to have conversations with the horse such as "We can do a working trot from __ to __ and stop....we can do a circle at __ and free walk at __ then stop...etc. etc." If the horse remains forward and willing, then the rider can incorporate several maneauvers then stop. You just work your way up to doing an entire test (or jump course)....and if the horse starts feeling lazy, back off some on how much you ask of him at that time. Horses like these need shorter sessions but that are filled with tons of variety...if you keep asking and keep asking these horses for more and more and more they will shut down and just say NO lol.

    Now if you are a jumper and your horse is lazy, use the same concepts, just with jumps....once the horse is forward on the flat, jump one jump then stop and chill. Once that's good, add another....then another....and so on until you can do an entire course.

    With grazing spots, if you aren't in an arena, you don't stop at the same place each time....you just ride to A spot....a spot that has lots of great grass :) With using treats, again, the rider isn't BRIBING the horse to go....bribing does not work in the long run. It's just another option to use in an arena....have a barrel or something set up in certain spots in the arena with food on it and ride to that spot and let the horse find it. And really you could mix it up.....the horse gets a food reward overe here and a rest over there......does that clear things up?
         
        11-24-2009, 10:03 PM
      #29
    Green Broke
    I'm just genuinely curiously where the stop prevention comes in. I used to treat my horse from the saddle - my Arab mare. At first, it was to help stop her from walking off when mounting and it worked well. Then it was at random times to reward good behavior. Do you know what I got? A horse that would do one thing and then immediately slam the brakes on and crank her head to my knee. Even after five YEARS of stopping this practice, she'll still crank her head to my knee every once in awhile searching for a cookie.

    I already fight to stop Jynx from grazing - part of her slow and pokey moves are seeing when she can grab a chance to dive for some grass. I do not see, for even an instant, her associating jogging from one barrel to a second barrel with being allowed to graze - I see her as associating being able to graze with being ridden which no rider wants.

    I can understand the stopping, which is definitely what she gets. After she's jogged nicely for X amount of time, we'll stop and take a breather or just walk slowly. I cannot, for the life of me, allowing a horse to stop every 30 seconds as a "reward" enforce anything good in their minds.
         
        11-24-2009, 10:14 PM
      #30
    Started
    [quote=MacabreMikolaj;471731]I'm just genuinely curiously where the stop prevention comes in. I used to treat my horse from the saddle - my Arab mare. At first, it was to help stop her from walking off when mounting and it worked well. Then it was at random times to reward good behavior. Do you know what I got? A horse that would do one thing and then immediately slam the brakes on and crank her head to my knee. Even after five YEARS of stopping this practice, she'll still crank her head to my knee every once in awhile searching for a cookie.

    I don't suggest people give treats from the saddle very often because of what you described. I'll give my horse a treat after I get on (I have specific reasons for that, I've never done it with any other horse) and maybe, just maybe, one every now and then when I'm on him...If I have it with me...and if he offered me something really great.


    I already fight to stop Jynx from grazing - part of her slow and pokey moves are seeing when she can grab a chance to dive for some grass. I do not see, for even an instant, her associating jogging from one barrel to a second barrel with being allowed to graze - I see her as associating being able to graze with being ridden which no rider wants.

    Getting a horse to stop going for grass when you're on them is actually very simple to do. And if you have the respect down under saddle, the horse won't go for grass unless you tell him it's okay. I've done point to point exercises (using rest, grazing and having treats set up) with many a lazy horse and not one of them has associating eating with riding. They actually become MORE respectful of my requests.


    I can understand the stopping, which is definitely what she gets. After she's jogged nicely for X amount of time, we'll stop and take a breather or just walk slowly. I cannot, for the life of me, allowing a horse to stop every 30 seconds as a "reward" enforce anything good in their minds.

    Why not? Doing point to point exercises is by far better, and more effective, than kicking and breaking out whips and being forceful. The rider needs to motivate this kind of horse's MIND.....if the rider does, the body will follow. Lazy behavior is actually a mental brace against the rider, and a brace in the body started as a brace in the mind....and being more forceful will NOT take away the brace in the horse's mind whatsoever.
         

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