Need Help With Collection and cantering - The Horse Forum
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post #1 of 32 Old 02-07-2012, 12:32 AM Thread Starter
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Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Mount Compass, South Australia
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Need Help With Collection and cantering

Hi guys,

So if anyone has read my other posts you will know that I am very new at training a green horse. Although what I have been doing has actually turned out quite well for both me and my horse there are a few things I do need outside help with as the people who are helping me ....... don't exactly ...like english riding style.

So what I am asking is what is a good method for getting my mare collected, should I use poles or a roller and lunging system or something else.... is it better to do it riding or lunging?

Also she can canter but she seems very unbalanced when I am cantering her in circles and falls in easily how can I get more balance between us and ALSO :) What is a good way of getting her to canter on cue on the ground and on the horse?
I have done verbal commands on ground and on back with walk and trot but cantering is harder for me.....

ANY help is useful THANKS!!!!

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post #2 of 32 Old 02-07-2012, 04:15 AM
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If she's not balanced, you have no hope of getting collection. Collection comes from years of hard work, gymnastic training and skillfull riding. It is not something that you can do in one day by strapping the horse's head down and kicking.
At this point in time, with a green horse, all you should be doing is establishing her 'buttons' and 'gears'. She needs to get off your leg immediately, come back to your rein and to your seat. You need to have a perfectly established 'stop, go and turn', and a horse that is willing to go forward and stay forward, until you say otherwise. From there, you can begin introducing a little leg yield, and establishing more bend through the mare's body, which will gradually help to develop her carrying capacity through the hind quarters, and encourage her to swing through the back - the beginning of the stepping stones to collection.

I see you are at Mt Compass, not far from me. There are some good dressage coaches around the area, if you are interested I can send you a list of some people. Or if you were really keen, I would be willing to come and give you a bit of help or have a few sits on your mare to see what I can give you to work on.

~Horse & Hound Artistry~.

Website: www.horseandhoundartistry.com
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post #3 of 32 Old 02-07-2012, 04:34 AM
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As well as above ^^

Green horse=go.

Collection in canter should be the last thing on your mind right now- just establish forwards for now.

I found cantering on the lunge really helped my mare, however this only works if you stop the canter when they start to go completely on the fore/ are running away. Cantering around in constant circles doesn't achieve much. This applies to riding too!

Also, if she's dropping on her inside shoulder, raise your outside hand to help support her.
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Last edited by DuffyDuck; 02-07-2012 at 04:41 AM.
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post #4 of 32 Old 02-07-2012, 09:43 AM
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You won't achieve collection at this point in time.

I too am training a young horse at the moment, we have established walk and trot in an outline and with balance. We are currently working on canter however the poor lad is not balanced and when I'm sitting on him he feels like he is going to get his legs in a knot and go splat at any moment. It is up to me as a rider to balance him, to give him the confidence to relax in the canter and to round through his back, step under himself and come onto the bit (it feels like that will take some time), he will only do this when he is confident in his balance.

It is not something that can be taught over the internet. I learnt it by riding horses that were schooled to higher level dressage, then teaching it to the older ponies I had. Now I'm transfering it to a baby and it is **** hard work.

Please please please get a good dressage trainer as it is the only way you will learn correctly.

RIDE your horse FORWARDS and keep him STRAIGHT

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post #5 of 32 Old 02-07-2012, 10:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by faye View Post
You won't achieve collection at this point in time.

I too am training a young horse at the moment, we have established walk and trot in an outline and with balance. We are currently working on canter however the poor lad is not balanced and when I'm sitting on him he feels like he is going to get his legs in a knot and go splat at any moment. It is up to me as a rider to balance him, to give him the confidence to relax in the canter and to round through his back, step under himself and come onto the bit (it feels like that will take some time), he will only do this when he is confident in his balance.

It is not something that can be taught over the internet. I learnt it by riding horses that were schooled to higher level dressage, then teaching it to the older ponies I had. Now I'm transfering it to a baby and it is **** hard work.

Please please please get a good dressage trainer as it is the only way you will learn correctly.
^^^^ Oh How Very Much I Agree with this insight from faye.
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post #6 of 32 Old 02-07-2012, 10:11 AM
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I agree with everyone here, and you won't learn to do it anywhere but on the back of your horse. That being said, if you horse is falling in on circles, first make sure he is on the right lead, and second make sure that you are sitting straight in the saddle and not leaning in...put weight in that outside stirrup. If you are leaning so will your horse.

If you could have someone put you on a long line and you canter on it while riding that might help you to work on balance etc...colelction wont come until your horse can canter smoothly and in balance. Once you guys have the balance then you can start asking for collection. Asking too soon you'll just end up carrying the horse instead of the horse carrying itself...it's a process.
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post #7 of 32 Old 02-07-2012, 10:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kstinson View Post
I agree with everyone here, and you won't learn to do it anywhere but on the back of your horse..
See I don't believe you can learn on a horse that has not learnt itself.

I learnt what was needed for a good correct canter my riding and schooling (under instruction from an FBHS) an advanced medium Dressage horse.

I then learnt how to apply it by taking it to my Connemara who was at that point working at Elem level dressage and teaching him to take his collection, outline and balance further (it was already at a good level).

Now I am learning the difference between teaching an older horse and teaching a baby.

However the basics which were instilled in me on a much more advanced horse are what I am teaching him. I know what I'm feeling for so I know when to give, when to praise and how to correct it when it just doesnt feel right you cannot learn that on a baby.
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RIDE your horse FORWARDS and keep him STRAIGHT

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post #8 of 32 Old 02-07-2012, 02:14 PM
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Riding a consistent horse and training a green horse and two very different things, while I agree with you absolutely that instruction from an FBHS on an advanced medium Dressage horse is ideal for learning, not everyone has that option. But furthermore the poster has not said that she does not know how to canter a horse, only that she is having trouble training it. So I am assuming that she has cantered before likely on something that is set in the gait and the rider would then know the basics. I found the transition from schooling on a consistent horse to training/starting a horse to be a bit of work even coming from a similar sitation as your own but I got myself someone on the ground to correct me and made it work.

I assume you read my whole post, so if you did you saw that I recommend her going on a long line with the horse so that she can be corrected by the individual on the ground and get a rhythm with her horse in a circle format. The only way she can learn to train a canter is by cantering a horse that needs some training. When you're starting out training I think it is wise to have someone on the ground that can make corrections but you have to make the transition sometime or have someone else train becuse it is hard to objectively pick out what you are doing wrong when you're new to something ie: training. I think that she can do it, from what she has said about the horse being able to canter, just not balanced tells me that she could use someone to watch her and correct her motions so she and the horse move sinuously as 9 times out of 10 it is what the rider is doing and so if she can have someone show her where the corrections need to be made likely they'll get going well.

Hope that is more clear where my thoughts are at :)
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Last edited by kstinson; 02-07-2012 at 02:19 PM.
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post #9 of 32 Old 02-07-2012, 02:21 PM
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I have an old copy of this book~
Http://www.amazon.com/Cavalletti-Schooling-Horse-Rider-Ground/dp/1570763836/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1328642301&sr=1-1Ground schooling over cavaletti teaches your horse to balance and pick up his feet, so he can develop the musculature to carry you in a collected frame. It's gymnastically difficult for ANY horse, so sessions should be short. Once you spend a season training very regularly--4-5 sessions/week--you can couple this with short riding sessions over cavaletti. ALSO, teach your horse half-halts and using them routinely. You'll get really good "brakes", your horse will become more responsive and he engage his hindquarters for you. Hope this helps
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post #10 of 32 Old 02-07-2012, 02:33 PM
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Before you can collect you have to balance the horse - she is unbalanced hence why she "falls in" while circling. Use your body to help her until she is strong enough to carry herself in a balanced frame.

If she falls in on a circle then the rider should put their butt "to the outside" of the saddle. Note once the horse no longer falls in on a circle, then the rider can slowly move their center of gravity to the center where it should be, as long as the horse can maintain the balance. Use inside hip to outside rein and outside rein slightly away from the shoulder to prevent the horse from "popping" it's shoulder to the outside.

Come back in a few months and ask about "collection" again once the horse has sufficient muscling over it's topline to maintain a nice balanced canter in a small circle without falling inward.

Dressage is for Trainers!

Last edited by Valentina; 02-07-2012 at 02:35 PM.
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