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need help figuring out the best way to deal with my filly

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    06-29-2013, 04:57 PM
  #21
Green Broke
Maybe your filly is a mixture of dominance and insecurity which would explain why things are all over the place for you. You’re finding out, then, training is more complex with her and that makes it all the more reason to proceed thoughtfully, cautiously and thoroughly. She may well continue to test your knowledge and skill to the limits of your ability at every step of her training. It will be all about the little things with her. For example, Useandpets made an excellent comment about the way you are holding your lead rope. I might suggest you take a look at Clinton Anderson’s groundwork methods. His methods are fairly straightforward. You can adapt the delivery of them to suit both you and your filly. Once you have that in hand, then you can think about moving on to the saddle/riding training.

Good luck and work safely.
     
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    06-30-2013, 03:31 AM
  #22
Green Broke
Quote:
Originally Posted by a saddened cowgirl    
Again I will never go and whip the **** out of mine or any other horse with the end of a lead rope! I hate when people do that and when I see people do that to their horse it makes me want to rip the horse from their hands and whip the person with the rope till they stop like the horse would! It only causes them to be afraid of you! And same when they yank on the horses head more then 2-3 good time. Its rediculous! You don't get any where with force! Its teaching the horse and the only thing I haven't tried to get her to back off me (besides abuse) is holding the lead father out. I've pushed on her, I've made her back till she almost trips and id hold something so she pokes her self. And with the kicking you could just be standing there with her in reach and yell at her like yourmad and she will kick out at you and I've even carried a short lunge whip and have whipped herwhen she tried doing that and it didn't faze her at all. Trust me she is a horse like no other. I've trained at least 30 horses to the point of breaking them out and I've broke at least 10 I've never came across a horse like this one. BUT I will NEVER whip my horse with a lead rope to the point its almost running backwords to get away. That's NOT training that is putting fear into a horse!
No one is saying you should beat or whip the horse like that.

Ok. So you say she is sensitive but you've also used a whip with her that had no affect. I think she has figured you out so she gets out of work. She has realized that you won't make her do what you want. She has gained the leadership role in your relationship. A sensitive horse will flee with sudden movements of yourself, a rope or whip. I've dealt and am dealing with some. You need to desensitize them to your tools or show them that they don't need to fear them. However, they also need to learn to respect those same tools in that you will use them IF necessary.

If you were to turn a sensitive horse out in a new herd, the herd will not go, "Oh, this horse is sensitive. We need to be nice and not bite or kick it. We need to coddle it to make it feel better and welcome." They would treat it like any other horse. That's what you need to do. You may need to take smaller steps with her or break things down and go slower. That doesn't mean you can't correct or discipline her.

When leading her, you can't hold her at 4 inches and expect her to stand 2 feet away. If someone is pulling your hair, what would you do? You could try pulling away but that causes discomfort. So you try to stay close enough that you hair doesn't get pulled. Same goes for leading her. You hold her at 4 inches so she has learned that she feels less pressure being close to you. When you stop her, she follows that "rule" of stay close. Now you decide you want the rules to change and she is to stand away from you. She gets confused with the inconsistencies.

I don't know what your definition of NH is since there is no specific definition. If you believe it is horse whispering, horse kisses, rainbow farts, and never ever hitting a horse, good luck with that. It just might have worked with the horses you've dealt with so far. She needs something different. No method works on all horses. You need to be able to adapt to the horse and that might include popping the horse once in a while.

You say we should never force a horse. If so, we would never get them to work for us or carry us. We use pressure or force to get them to move, and so do other horses. We use the release of pressure or force to teach them. Unless you are telepathic, I really don't see how you could not use force with horses.
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    06-30-2013, 04:04 AM
  #23
Trained
So basically what you're saying is that when my mare (who is a very dominant horse that would happily walk right all over me) kicks back at a underling running up behind her, that's ok. But when I pop her with my leadrope or a firm smack for her doing the same thing to me, it's wrong?

My horses are not afraid of me for hitting them. The aforementioned mare and I have a solid, mutually respectful relationship and I can honestly just give her a dirty look and she will stay away from me. My other mare was more than forced into a halter by 3 grown adults and took a solid bit of effort to teach to lead because she was an untouched 3 year old and terrified. When she calmed down, she did get her fair share of smacks when she was learning about my personal space. I am now the proud owner of a hooved golden retriever.

If you continue this way of thinking, do not forward your medical bills to me.
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    07-03-2013, 08:50 PM
  #24
Foal
I never said not to smack or "pop" a horse! Just the way I have ever seen any one "pop" a horse with the lead and make them back they whip the horse repeatedly whlie making them back till they are tripping over their own feet. That's how most of you trainers do it. And you don't force a horse to do any thing if they are trained properly, you ask them and you teach them just like whit a kid. Disciplining a horse if different them whipping them. Im not stupid. Also I don't hold my horse 4inches away from my I hold her like you would if you were showing in halter or showmanship. Hand under the clip of the lead and an arms length away. Not 4in away from my body. Again im not stupid
     
    07-03-2013, 08:57 PM
  #25
Started
When you lead her, stop every now and then and back her up a few steps.
If he tries to invade your space, get big. Wave your arms, back her up without moving your feet. When you walk and she crowds your side, walk with your hand under your arm and elbow out. If she tries to crowd too much she will run into your elbow or if you stop and she wants to crowd then again will run into your elbow.

If she likes to crowd your back, then grab a crop or a carrot stick. Tuck it under your arm that is not leading and face one end towards the filly. When you stop and she wants to crowd, then she will run into the end of the stick of wonder "what happened? I couldn't touch her!"

Same if you are just in the pasture.
     
    07-03-2013, 09:26 PM
  #26
Started
Quote:
Originally Posted by a saddened cowgirl    
I never said not to smack or "pop" a horse! Just the way I have ever seen any one "pop" a horse with the lead and make them back they whip the horse repeatedly whlie making them back till they are tripping over their own feet. That's how most of you trainers do it. And you don't force a horse to do any thing if they are trained properly, you ask them and you teach them just like whit a kid. Disciplining a horse if different them whipping them. Im not stupid. Also I don't hold my horse 4inches away from my I hold her like you would if you were showing in halter or showmanship. Hand under the clip of the lead and an arms length away. Not 4in away from my body. Again im not stupid
You need to give her some lead, no wonder she steps on you.

And as for her kicking when someone yells at her, I would just yell, and keep moving her hind end, untill she stops and becomes desensitized to it. You areNOT hurting her feelings by yelling at her, she does not know the difference. If you yell all the time, she would accept that as normal.

Horses do NOT learn like children, they are prey animals that are livestock, and have their own set of communications. YOU have to learn what that is to communicate with them.

Nancy
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    07-03-2013, 09:35 PM
  #27
Showing
Quote:
Originally Posted by a saddened cowgirl    
Just the way I have ever seen any one "pop" a horse with the lead and make them back they whip the horse repeatedly whlie making them back till they are tripping over their own feet. That's how most of you trainers do it.

That's a bit presumptuous, isn't it? As far as I know, you've not been hanging around my barn. As you have said, there is a difference between correction and overkill, but as can be seen by your filly's behavior, whatever you are doing isn't working. I have a suspicion it's because you're being too "soft" on her.

And you don't force a horse to do any thing if they are trained properly, you ask them and you teach them

Depends on how you define "force". Any amount of pressure can be quantified as "force"...and pressure and release is simply how horses learn, but if you're talking about just man-handling them around, any horseman worth more than 2 squirts of duck poop knows that doesn't accomplish anything.

There are times, though, when a handler needs to get a bit more assertive with a horse to regain or retain their respect.

What happens when you "ask" and they just look at you and basically say "F--- off"? Do you increase the pressure until they comply or do you just keep picking and nagging at them in hopes that they'll respond to you when you "ask"?


Disciplining a horse if different them whipping them.

In most instances, the only difference is the duration and the attitude of the handler. If you know what you're doing and you keep a cool head, then you can "whip" and stop at the right place and get the right results. If you don't know what you're doing or you get mad, then no amount of "whipping" or lack of "whipping" is going to get a good result.

Also I don't hold my horse 4inches away from my I hold her like you would if you were showing in halter or showmanship. Hand under the clip of the lead and an arms length away. Not 4in away from my body.
The way I read the responses, that's exactly the way other folks understood it and were responding to exactly that. Try holding her lead 2-3 feet down from the snap as that will give her more freedom to keep out of your space. If you're holding her like they do in halter, then she's only got the span of your arm to get away from you...so she crowds you. If she had another 2-3 feet, she might not be right up in your business all the time.


Also, nobody is saying that you're stupid, we're just pointing out that whatever you're doing isn't working. If it was, you wouldn't be having these problems. So, you're here asking for help. It is frustrating for many of us to take the time to write out thorough and educational answers only to have the OP basically say "OMG, you are a bunch of abusive meanies, you never do <this> or <that> with a horse because it doesn't work".

What bothers us most about that answer is that we're not the one's having problems so our methods clearly do work... if you have the knowledge to apply them properly.
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