No respect??
   

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No respect??

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  • Will she respect me if i dont touch her

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    11-23-2012, 08:39 PM
  #1
Foal
No respect??

Hi. I am aring for a pony mare for about three years now. Since two years ago I have her at lease. She used to be quite agressive, wouldn't let anyone but her owner get her tacked, groomed etc. She bit, kicked, ran away from humans. Through the first year I managed to let her know I am not the bad guy. The problem was, she was not afraid, she knew everything too well. But she got used to that if she didn't let anyone touch her, she will live in peace. And that if she tries to bite, noone will bite her back, they will go away.

So I started to groom her with a stick in my hand, because otherwise she could have killed me. She was easier to handle after riding, so I gave the upringing more time after riding. Well, we beated ourselves for many times, I got my ribs broken, lip bitten through, nose brokem, hand twised, etc, she got a high number of scratches from stick, my feet, lead rope, whatever was by hand. After a while she was trying it less and less. In a year it was perfecty OK, standing while grooming, tacking, mounting up, mounting down, un-tacking,... Sometimes she tried it, but just a "no" was enough for her.

She has learned the basic maneurs, I think. When it was safe enough, and when I strted to trust her enough, we sterted doing some "playing" together. Not really some Parelli or etc but our own style- building the trust, more respect (method of whip and sugar-lot of "treats" if she was good, sharp signals, if she wasn't). It is all going quite well, I would say.

The prblem is, every once in a while-sometimes after a month, sometimes after three, she makes a "mistake". She tries to kick me hard (ok, sometimes I come to her while she I s eating, but anyway, she can't do this), or she makes something bad, which she perfectly know is bad, and she mostly makes a soudn like "queeeeeeeeeeck", gives her ears flat, her eyebowls out, turns her ass to me. I don't let it go, I would be back again on the beginning. I ususally grab the first thing unger hand and "deal with it like an alpha horse would"-i give it back to her, usually beat her in the butt with the wooden thing on shovel, etc. It is harch, but if I werent, I would be killed by now. Of course I do not use this if she only tries to bite me, but if she really becomes agressive, I become too. I normla "tryings" she is ok with just "NO" or stronger "AY". She knows that very well.

So she is perfectly lovely, I can lie under her, but after two months, she just makes this. I give her one shot with a whip/stick/whatever, and she gives her head down, starts to chew, watches me, and as I say "come", she comes to me, lets herself pet etc...

-I think she understands, that I am no harm to her if she doesnt do anything. She is perfectly ok with whips etc, I can wave with it around her head and she doesn't even blink. So I don't think she is afraid of it. I just cannot understand, that she s always trying again and again. I never let her win.... Do you think it is possible she will never change and will be always like this? For six years it was perfectly normal for her that if she bit/kicked someone, it was alright... she trustes me, she comes to me at calling, she greets me everyday when I come to her, everything is fine, just once in a while she has some "error" in her mind.... after 5 minutes she is all fine again.... :(
     
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    11-23-2012, 08:48 PM
  #2
Foal






     
    11-23-2012, 08:51 PM
  #3
Foal
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v...type=3&theater
     
    11-23-2012, 11:42 PM
  #4
Yearling
Do you by any chance hand feed her? Some horses you can not hand feed treats, they get aggressive if they don't get one or want one. Any treats my horses get are always in their feed dishes. I have a 3yr. Who was born here from my mare, he was only a few days old and he was always trying to suckle me, I didn't want to hit him so I did what his Mom would do.....I squealed at him! I only had to squeal 3 times and since then he has never nibbled or bitten anyone. All my horses know when I walk in the pasture I am in charge and I didn't have to hit them with anything for them to respect me.
Do you do ground work with her? Sounds like she needs to start with the basic ground manners.....teaching her to stay out of your space, lots of backing......I follow Clinton Anderson's methods and have for about 7yrs. Now, his DVDs teach the handler on to gain the respect of the horse on the ground first and once you have that when you do ride they listen and respect you.
Do a search on Youtube for Clinton Anderson, I know there are alot of vids up there showing how to do ground work.....good luck!
     
    11-23-2012, 11:51 PM
  #5
Green Broke
You said she "knows you aren't the bad guy" and she trusts you. These are mutually exclusive for horses - she will trust you when you put the fear of god into her. She needs to understand that you are the leader - if she is kicking out and trying to bite you, then she thinks SHE is the leader, and that needs to stop. To know how to make yourself her leader, you need to watch horses interact together, particularly the boss horse in the group. Watch how they chase the others around, how they bite and kick the others into submission. That is how you need to be - completely domineering, expecting your horse to not ever put a foot wrong, and bringing the wrath if she does. Only once this respect is there can you allow her in to be "friends" too - but always at your invitation, not at the horse's.
     
    11-24-2012, 12:17 AM
  #6
Foal
By way of your descriptions and your pictures with her, that actually speak of a great bond there, I think you have found a path that is not at all wrong. We have one horse in our barn who has some ground manner issues that most of the time are completely gone - but whenever he is exposed to something new, some change, anything stressful, he reverts to his old self and becomes very hard to manage.
Those are the days we lead him with a nose chain, and make him step off of us.

My trainer says, that a horse will always return to first trained patterns if the surroundings and impressions change to where they used to get away with things or when they are under a lot of duress.

I am not sure whether she will ever be completely "there", but take Chilaa's words to heart and become also very self-aware and aware of your own body language toward the horse. Be confident :)

1 years work to undo 6 years of shambles isn't really all that long. And seeing the pictures, you have come a very long, successful way. Well done :)
LZ

PS: by the way the pictures look, the fence is built and the house in the background.. are you in the Germany, Austria Region somewhere? :)

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    11-24-2012, 03:49 AM
  #7
Foal
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thunderspark    
do you by any chance hand feed her? Some horses you can not hand feed treats, they get aggressive if they don't get one or want one. Any treats my horses get are always in their feed dishes. I have a 3yr. Who was born here from my mare, he was only a few days old and he was always trying to suckle me, I didn't want to hit him so I did what his Mom would do.....I squealed at him! I only had to squeal 3 times and since then he has never nibbled or bitten anyone. All my horses know when I walk in the pasture I am in charge and I didn't have to hit them with anything for them to respect me.
Do you do ground work with her? Sounds like she needs to start with the basic ground manners.....teaching her to stay out of your space, lots of backing......I follow Clinton Anderson's methods and have for about 7yrs. Now, his DVDs teach the handler on to gain the respect of the horse on the ground first and once you have that when you do ride they listen and respect you.
Do a search on Youtube for Clinton Anderson, I know there are alot of vids up there showing how to do ground work.....good luck!
I hand feed her with some treats sometimes, but her regular meal she gets frm buckets. Snce she hated every touch from me, I started to pet her while I got her some treat after she did something right. To connect the pleasent one (treat) with the new "treat"-petting her, saying "nice girl" etc... Right now I do not often give her treats from my hand like that, but I use carrots or dry bread pieces when we do some stretching (she stands and he's to get her head to her butt on both sides, between her front legs, etc.... We do this stretching before riding, and after ridign if the lesson was hard.

About ground work, the first year, she would have draught me on the lead rope back home, shile kicking, bucking etc, since it was possilbe, we sterted to ground work, beginings just with respecting the alter and human as a leader (going side by side, stopping when the leader does, strating shen he does, basicly going with the leader withou pulling the leadrope) and letting me to touch her in different body parts (she is an ekzemer, summer rug), sinc I have to put some medicine I.e. Between her hind legs, under the tail (putting a crupper on, putting on medicine for he rug), and giving all four legs without kicking my face etc. Right now, we also do some ground work, usually once a week, and she respects me touching her at all body parts, but still she is a bit stiff when I touch her teats, but I think she will get along. This summer I put on the mdicine usually and she got used to it. (and even didnt kill me evidently ), she will go away from the pressure put on butt, whithers, belly, get her head donw on the pressure behind the ears, can do "stay" and "come" (i still secur eher with the long line, since we do not have any fenced area), she lets me handle all her legs-i take one, do some stretching, twisting, I do some things what are done by siths, although she has no horse shoes. Some "hitting" on the hoof etc. O the lead rope we do walk-trot-halt-back without the leadrope pulling, she goes side by side, goes backwards on "back", and we make some funny thing s like "please"-rising her front leg, I tech her to rise all fer feet only when I point at it... She would stay at a place when I groom he reven without being tighten up by a leadrope, as well by tacking her up, no poblems with tightening the girth, both from ground and from saddle, or mouting up. All is fine. While riding she tries not to eat grass, when she is rutting, she I s a bit lazy, but otherwise she is perfect to ride, soft, and would do anything I as for, if she understands it. On trails she is afraid of creeks, since she never saw any, just this holiday, we were on hliay together for a week in the mountains, but when I go beside her, she goes in it. Otherwise she goes everywhere, where I ask her to go, even into a wall.

While I am grooming her on the whithhers, she "massages" me with her upper lip on myback or butt. She bites not...

For biting, she sometimes "licks" my fingers, without using teeth, I just say "firmly, firmly" and she licks it. Few times did she try to use teeth, but not in a bad manner, she just doent understand I am more sensitive then horses. So I said her "no", an when she started just licking, I again said "firmly, firmly" and after few tries she is ok with it...
     
    11-24-2012, 03:52 AM
  #8
Foal
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chiilaa    
You said she "knows you aren't the bad guy" and she trusts you. These are mutually exclusive for horses - she will trust you when you put the fear of god into her. She needs to understand that you are the leader - if she is kicking out and trying to bite you, then she thinks SHE is the leader, and that needs to stop. To know how to make yourself her leader, you need to watch horses interact together, particularly the boss horse in the group. Watch how they chase the others around, how they bite and kick the others into submission. That is how you need to be - completely domineering, expecting your horse to not ever put a foot wrong, and bringing the wrath if she does. Only once this respect is there can you allow her in to be "friends" too - but always at your invitation, not at the horse's.
That I am not the bad guy, I meant I will not do anything to her as long as she does anything to me. I was totally cool, just having my eyes opened. As long as she stayed quietly, I was just humming or telling her something in a quiet voice, and when she tried to kick/bite, I put the stick and she got one. There was no way I could just tell her "no, you beast", she evidently did nothing from it.... I don't like beating her, and it is hardly neccessary last months, but when she does simething big, I will get big back on her. She can't do that.... she woudl do that next time even worse....
     
    11-24-2012, 03:59 AM
  #9
Foal
Quote:
Originally Posted by LittleZeasel    
By way of your descriptions and your pictures with her, that actually speak of a great bond there, I think you have found a path that is not at all wrong. We have one horse in our barn who has some ground manner issues that most of the time are completely gone - but whenever he is exposed to something new, some change, anything stressful, he reverts to his old self and becomes very hard to manage.
Those are the days we lead him with a nose chain, and make him step off of us.

My trainer says, that a horse will always return to first trained patterns if the surroundings and impressions change to where they used to get away with things or when they are under a lot of duress.

I am not sure whether she will ever be completely "there", but take Chilaa's words to heart and become also very self-aware and aware of your own body language toward the horse. Be confident :)

1 years work to undo 6 years of shambles isn't really all that long. And seeing the pictures, you have come a very long, successful way. Well done :)
LZ

PS: by the way the pictures look, the fence is built and the house in the background.. are you in the Germany, Austria Region somewhere? :)

Posted via Mobile Device
The thing is, the first year there was also another girl, just riding her, and she could do whateve he wanted while the girl rode her, she culd control her. That's why I wanted the lease... So that only I would handle her... I would understand, if I got to her from rear side, without making any noise "hey, I am here" while she was eating. That natural. But for example the last time she had this "error", it was while we were stretching her neck. We did it three times, whe was alright, no pain, etc. I went there for the fourth tim, and as I touched her butt (just as I do every time, my hand touching her at the neck and moving to the butt, to prevent her from moving the butt, s she will tay on the place and just strecth her neck), she squeeled at me and kicked. There was nothing wrongtith her neck, was alright, or her back (I had the vet there another day to check her back), and she did it not while stretching but, when I touched her butt. Seemed to me like saying " I am bored with this, lets do something else", I got ack at her, this time with my own feet, but after 5 seconds, I said "come", she came to me, leaning her head towads my breasts and let herself being petted. And we did a few stretches more, without any problem... I can try to video this stretching today when I get to her.

P.S.: I am from Czech :) So please forgive my bad english :)
     
    11-24-2012, 04:01 AM
  #10
Foal
The strange thing for me is that she is alright and suddenly she has some "error" and after five minutes she is just fine again.... That it doesnt begin gradually-one little bit, bigger bite, bite, kick...
     

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