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Is this the norm in western pleasure?

13K views 115 replies 36 participants last post by  bsms 
#1 ·
So I don't watch western pleasure much at all. I'm more of an English person. I went to an open show this past weekend and got there while western pleasure was warming up. It's an open fun show so of course a lot of people are avid trail riders looking to have a bit of showing fun. Then there are people who do compete higher and are showing in the open fun show for practice. I saw quite a few of the more serious western pleasure competitions pulling their horses into completely false frames. The people who were there for fun were just riding and their horses were actually really collected and relaxed but still could move out. Anyways what some of the people were doing hurt me to watch. They would sit there and yank on their horses bits every time the horses head came up even a little. And by yank I mean hard with the entire hand. They stopped yanking when their horses heads were behind the vertical. Most of the horses had their mouths open of course. But man that yanking made MY mouth hurt! But I noticed it was mostly the more serious western pleasure people doing it. Is that really a major method in western pleasure training?? I sure hope not. It was painful to watch. And one of the girls was teaching a child to do it to her sweet horse too. She had her really pulling on the bit. And these bits had pretty big shanks o_O
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#76 ·
I still don't understand why people think breed show people are not allowed at local fun shows. What's wrong with going to practice on a $10k horse? Seems like a lot of people are just plain jealous. Usually the 5 figure horses will be placed at the top of the class because it's not cheap to breed and train pleasure horses! Sorry! Showing is not a pity contest. The judge doesn't see who "deserves" it more than the other person. All they see is what is in front of them right there. How can you honestly say someone else does not deserve to win because they spent more money than you? Can you really judge a person because they have a nice horse? Have you even talked to them?

Good grief. If you were really there for fun you would be thankful that these people showed up to support and give money to your club to put on more shows. I am just appalled at the lack of sportsmanship by all people. Just because someone has a more expensive horse than you doesn't mean they don't work just as hard and don't deserve to be there. If you think someone is being out of line then tell your show organizers.
 
#77 ·
Oh Vair Oh, I don't disagree, but it can be difficult to attract more into the sport when there is just no chance in heck you will ever place in a class. When you have a $25,000 finished show horse with a world title competing against a $1,000 school horse used for lessons...there is a big difference. Kids DO need to learn how to win and lose gracefully, but they also grow discouraged and quit something they love when they are constantly losing due to an obvious lack of resources.

I wish there was a show circuit more suited to those just starting out and wanting to have fun. But I haven't found it yet. 4H is supposed to be that way, but the competitive nature of many parents/riders has encroached on that venue as well. I'm hoping that the new leveling program with AQHA may help even things up.

As I've stated, our goals are not to take Acey to Congrss or World. We show so that my daughter can learn about competition, sportsmanship, working as a team with her horse and trainer, and to see how her riding is progressing. We have found that showmanship and equitation classes work best for us, because it is supposed to be judged on the handler/rider and not all about the horse. We have beaten the finished show horses in those classes because my daughter is a good little rider and improving every day. :). That makes me proud and I hope it helps give Kitten the incentive to keep with the sport.
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#84 ·
Hey, I was that girl. I could barely place in an open show when I was first starting out. I was 9 years old. I had no trainer, no idea what shaping my hat was supposed to be, I didn't even know how to quarter. I got beat by "those girls" all the time! And I hated it! But instead of making me feel bad, or discouraged, it inspired me to be better. Train better. Learn more. Ask questions. Work for people who were the best in the industry. Learn their secrets. Make my own way. Save money. Invest in important items. Work hard. Work harder. Keep my ethics. Earn it the right way.

So I can't afford a $10k horse outright. BUT I could afford to breed one. Instead of buying a $5000 above average broke horse, we spent $5000 breeding "the" horse. Lily's siblings are for sale for $12,000 and $15,000 as yearlings. I don't have a trainer, I can't afford one. But I work for trainers. I spent $300 on a show halter and $200 on a show suit when I only make $600 a month because I scrimped and saved every penny. Then on the other side, I wear a $10 hunt coat from a tack sale and hand-me-down Tailored Sportsmans that my mom wore 20 years ago! I borrowed someones hunt boots that were 2 sizes too big to show at the world championships in! - and I got 7th!

My friend bought her halter horse from a sale for $700, and this year they were top 10 at AQHA Amateur World - all by herself!

I can only afford to go to 2 "big breed" shows a year. I cannot afford to practice at a breed show every month. Open shows are closer, cheaper, and give my horse more experience being around people who are inexperienced. And sometimes I feel like now I am "that girl". I have gotten some really mean words thrown my way from open show people just because I "look the part". But trust me when I say I have the least amount of money in my bank account but the most expensive horse I've ever owned in my life. It only took me 10 years to get there. xD

And also, I've worked for the people who own $60k and $70k horses. They have a lot of problems just like any other person would. Everyone has a journey in life. It's not fair to judge people by what they have and have not. You don't know their story.

People who are truly passionate about showing will not be discouraged by people who have more than they do. They will make it work, one way or another, because it's in their will to work hard. And it makes the victory all the more sweeter when "that girl", or even in my case, "that name trainer", places under you. :) Just my opinion!
 
#81 ·
I believe it's the horse. The quality of gait, manners, and if the horse looks to be a pleasure to ride
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#83 ·
My understanding (based on AQHA class descriptions):

Halter - All about the horse (handler should be properly dressed, hats are required).

Showmanship - ground class that is judged on how well the handler communicates with the horse and how well the horse responds to the instructions.

Western Pleasure / English Hunter under Saddle - ridden on the rail. The riders are asked to perform all the gaits, reverse and back. Primarily judged on the horses movement the gaits, transitions, etc. The rider is also judged (but not as much) because they prefer that the communication between horse and rider be "effortless" in appearance. A rider constantly in their horse's face, kicking, spurring, etc will not normally place.

Western Horsemanship / English Equitation - pattern class. The rider must navigate their mount through a pattern that can include circles, serpentines, reverse, turn, at different gaits and with lead/diagonal changes. Once again judged on how well the rider communicates with their horse. Judges prefer "quiet" riders over riders who use lots of obvious movements and aids for communication.

So, there's the summary of my (admittedly) limited knowledge of how these classes are judged. :). I'm still learning though!
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#85 ·
Oh Vair Oh, having watched you with Lily at a show or two, I truly admire you. I think you have done it right. Mean people suck, unfortunately they seem to be everywhere. :(.

I am not lucky enough to be able to give my daughter a finished show horse (or breed my own)...and she wouldn't trade her bratty/loveable mare even if I could ;). But, I have seen her frustration and hurt at shows where a judge places her last even when she was obviously better than some of the horses placed above her. (Not just my or my trainer's opinion, even some of the other rider's parents mentioned it).

The kid who won the class completely blew the pattern, but they had the "best horse". It's not right, but competitors have little recourse. Could I file a protest? Yes. It would cost me $$$ and there is no guarantee it would go anywhere. It's not worth it for a piece of satin and a few points toward year end awards. Instead, we chalk it up to a learning experience and I quietly mention it to the show organiser. I do know that there is one judge who probably won't be invited back due to that type of bias. That's the best we can do.

I think the bottom line (back on topic) is that there are bad trainers, riders, and judges is every equine competition. Those of us who choose to compete must do OUR best to not imitate those few bad apples. Change in the sport begins with each individual. We cannot give up and should continue to work toward PROVING that our gently trained methods produce even better results.

I'm setting out to prove to my daughter that even on her foundation QH, she can still compete against the "super models"...she will just have to work harder. The rewards will be great because she is a better rider than those kids who rely mostly on their horse to get them through the class. :)
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#86 ·
And she will be "that girl" in the end, because just imagine how good she'll be in 10 years! (BTW, Acey is a wonderful horse, I really think she deserves a lot more credit! I think you guys could really clean up at ABRA shows.)

Everybody has to start somewhere. Just like Kitten, I had to be a good rider/horseperson first. I had to make due with what I had. And I didn't have much at first! But I made it look good. ;) People who are handed nice horses aren't the ones who the trainer's choose to be their assistants.

Now I feel so blessed to have a horse that I feel matches what I have to offer. Truly, truly blessed. I have loved all my horses, even the ones who were conformationally challenged. But this horse is my one in a million chance of getting somewhere. My life's goal has always been to win a world championship using natural methods. Everything I do drives me to that goal. I eat, sleep, and dream about that neck ribbon. What once seemed so far away when I was 9 years old, so impossible, is now suddenly so feasible. It just takes a little time, patience, and determination.

Sure, there are huge trainers showing huge horses in the same classes as me at the big breed shows. But I remain true to myself and true to my horse. I've already won in the end. A big ribbon would just be the icing on the cake!
 
#88 ·
I need to do more research on ABRA. I just haven't seen very many shows in our area. :(. As best I can tell, we would need to drive to San Antonio/Austin or up to Oklahoma for one or two shows a year.

I really wish I could find more of those shows. We do really well in color classes because Acey has those beautiful primitive dun markings to go with her pretty red dun coloring. :). If the judge isn't focused in the flashy paint horses, we tend to place high. ;)

WP isn't our class, but I've seen some beautiful WP movers and can see the appeal. I'm not a fan of that odd looking lope (troping?), but that's just my opinion. Kitten thinks horses with their noses on the ground look "sad"...so she doesn't like making Acey drop her head too low. I guess it's all about what each individual likes...as long as getting there doesn't hurt the horse. :)
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#89 ·
I rode western pleasure for 4 years and even though my mentor wanted the gelding I rode to look and act like those horses he was more of an English mover so it was really difficult to train him to collect himself and slow down his gates so much that he was barely moving... i hated it which is why I don't ride with her anymore..my mentor said that a good wp lope is one that you can keep up with at a walk. and the devices used to train the horses to have such low headsets is cruel in and of themselves I can tell you more about them if you want
 
#91 ·
...my mentor said that a good wp lope is one that you can keep up with at a walk. and the devices used to train the horses to have such low headsets is cruel in and of themselves I can tell you more about them if you want
I dislike watching WP and have no desire to ride or compete in it. However, if a low headset comes from cruelty, it is because the rider is cruel and uncaring - a problem that can be found in any area of competition, or any area of riding.

Here are two pictures of my non-WP Arabian mare. In one, we are cantering and she is thinking about getting competitive with our Appy, who is coming up behind her:



In this one, she is hanging around, being lazy before a ride:



Her head when lazy isn't grossly higher than the desired headset of a WP competition, although there are obviously some WP riders who want lower. However - if it is not uncomfortable for an Arabian mare who frequently lifts her head to look around to carry it nearly level, I doubt any cruelty is required to breed or teach a WP competition horse to carry its head level or lower.

Even on this picture from a trail ride, when she is looking around, her headset when doing a relaxed jog is barely above level - and I do NOTHING to influence her head position. If that is true with a purebred Arabian mare, how much more so for a QH, particularly one bred for WP?



WP is not cruel. Dressage is not cruel. Jumping is not cruel. Barrel racing is not cruel. Trail riding is not cruel. Bits are not cruel. But unhappily, some PEOPLE are cruel...:evil:
 
#92 ·
While true the horse I rode naturally carried his head a little high...my mentor had another girl ride him in a device that made his head hang low and once he gave in because of the immense pressure on his poll and mouth they would tighten it even more one day the horse reared up and over backwards cause he hated his head being so restricted
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#93 ·
Your "mentor" had no idea what she was doing then, and was cruel.
I ride a western pleasure horse, and she naturally lopes and jogs with a level headset, even in turnout. To get her to drop her head, she needs light rein pressure and light spur (emphasis on light) and she'll drop her head all the way to the ground if I want.
Not all WP horses are trained using shortcuts, and IMO devices like draw reins are not cruel when used correctly, with a snaffle and not relied on like a crutch. That being said, I rarely ride my horse in draw reins, and if i do, it's for 5-10 minutes after warming up if I feel like she's blowing off my cues.
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#94 ·
I think Danicelia's mentor knew exactly what she was doing - using force and pain to get what she wanted from the horse
That does not make it right - but it does happen
I'm curious to know what a the accepted headset is in these classes - if its a natural level then that's not what I'm seeing in this video. Surely working at such a slow pace in this frame puts a lot of strain on a horse?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eOLV7Mj0OUw
 
#95 ·
Ugh. That looks entirely UN natural to me. Too slow, too low. I guess it is all what one is use to though. I have been around a LOT of Quarter horses though and I have never seen one that moved like that or held it's head like that completely naturally. All disciplines do things to "enhance" the horses movement and headset though.
 
#97 ·
I'm not a fan of WP. I think it had the potential to be a good sport but most people (and I don't mean everyone) has taken it to such an extreme level that it's just not something I want to see.

If I had to choose, I've say reining is one of the better sports that actually showcase a more natural movement.

Of course, every sport has the potential to be cruel. Every THING has the potential to be cruel.
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#98 ·
"In the USEF, this constituted implementing specific rules, including a strict requirement that a horse must have its poll no lower than the height of its withers, or, in the case of the AQHA, a rule stating that the ideal gait shall be performed with a "level topline."" - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_pleasure

I doubt a slow jog puts any significant pressure on a horse - no more so than does dressage, and probably less than jumping. I'd be more concerned about horses that are required to turn fast at speed, or the Thoroughbred has been damaged by an emphasis on speed without caring about durability.

Screen shots from jaydee's video, taken at random during the jogging phase:




It is not something I would ever train Mia to do. Quite the opposite. But harmful? And I think it shows the peanut roller days are either gone or fading into the past...

And here is our 3/4 Arabian, 1/4 Appy gelding...is he doing 'WP' with my daughter? Would she score, if she picked up the reins and put her feet in the stirrups? How hard do you think she had to work to get THAT headset...:lol:


 
#100 ·
bsms - the headset on your daughters pony looks more correct to me re. my interpretation of what's level than some of the ones in the ring
The slow jog isn't going to hurt anything but I'm not so sure about that exaggerated lope which IMO looks disunited and un natural
 
#101 · (Edited)
^^ I will agree that the exaggerated lope of WP drives me nuts, as does the slower than molasses in January trot. However, a while back I tried to find an actual study on injuries in horses who are trained for WP. I found one, but it didn't indicate any unusual injury patterns.

I don't train for WP, nor will I ever do so. It has nothing to do with anything that gives me pleasure in western riding. I kind of feel about it the way I feel about western dressage - it isn't for me & I don't understand its purpose, but if it gets folks out enjoying their horses and trying to become better riders, why should I get upset?

I dislike the headset, but prefer the motion in the Arabian WP world. I wish AQHA WP would move in this direction. If they would also allow the horse to look around, then I think I could get interested in learning this:

US Arabian Western Pleasure Open Final - YouTube

2011 Arabian Horse National Western Pleasure Championship - YouTube
 
#102 · (Edited)
This is a screen capture from the 2011 Arabian Horse National WP Championship (6:39). I really dislike the headset (why can't people let the horse look where it is going?), but I think it shows an approach to WP that many of us would find more comfortable and "pleasurable":



I also like the galloping at around the 10 minute mark...
 
#105 ·
I'll preface this by saying that I don't particularly care for WP as a discipline. That isn't a dig against those of you who do it, it's just that that style of movement and that frame don't even remotely fit into my type of riding. For the most part, I'm a working cowgirl and I prefer to have my horses with their heads either wither level or slightly above...just wherever in there is comfortable for them.

NOW, on a good WP horse, the headset is natural. Like OVO with Lily, that's how she's bred to carry her head so that's how she does. It won't take much to keep in there in the course of her training.

Along with that, a good trainer can take a horse with less than ideal conformation and get the best out of them. On those highly trained horses who have a lot of knowledge with riders who have a lot of knowledge and high expectations, sometimes you do have to give them a bump in the mouth or on the sides to remind them to wake up and get down to business.

However, those folks that you see that are yanking the horse's into a low headset, they are just bad riders all the way around, regardless of discipline.

Horses who are bred to move like that, and even some who aren't, can do well just by being relaxed and cadenced.

Just as an example. this filly is cow and racing bred. I know both sides of her lines and there is zero breeding for headset in there. Also, don't assume that this is the result of "training" either as this was her first ride. It was just where she was comfortable and I encouraged that.


With a little bit of work, she could have easily had a WP headset and speed. She never would have done well at higher levels because she's got too much action, but at local shows where the training is really more important than the natural ability? She could have cleaned house.

Anyway, my view on it is this. I may not like the discipline because it would have no practical purpose in my world, but I can still appreciate a good one. Those folks who try to force it? While they are way too prominent, it's not just in the WP discipline. Every discipline in the world has folks who try to claw their way to the top on their horses bleeding mouths and sides.
 
#107 ·
Here is the look I prefer:



Or even our first time in years using a western saddle:



However, I have no objection to folks riding their horses in dressage or Western Pleasure. I dislike most headsets - I think we ought to ride the back and the legs, not the head. But a lot of horses have been ridden English 'on the bit' without any harm to the horse...and I see no harm in WP. Like I said, though, apart from the headset, the Arabian WP is closer to my idea of fun riding than the QH WP...but there is room for others to make a different choice. If their choice gets them riding and caring for their horse and being serious about riding well...then it is OK by me. :wink:
 
#108 ·
I like WP,when you see a horse trained right & has natural ability:D. Despite the breed there is poor trainers out there that try to mold a WP horse in short time frame or try to make one do the job it hasn't got the natural ability to do.

I like to use this video as an example of how I would like to see more horses go:wink: he was actually used as example in a WP instructional video for AQHA judges.:D Many may not like the look of a well trained WP horse,but know myself, i'd love to ride on one like him:lol:

 
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#110 ·
I only watched the first minute of that video, on Radical Revolution,but where the judge says his feet strike the ground at the same time in the trot, but if you look , they do NOT. his trot is closer to a walk, having four beats. the diagonal pairs are not completely joined, and there is absolutely no suspension. I do not think it is possible to actually trot without there being a moment of suspension when you are changing from one diagonal pair to the other. it's a bit like race walking; you are going really fast, but there is never even a second when both feet (human) are off the ground at the same time.

he is a alovely horse, and when he is trotting freely in the pasture, it is a correct trot, but under the rider, it is bogged down so that the front and rear leg of each diagonal pair get a split second seperated.

OK, I only watched a very little bit of the first part, and he looked better further on in the video. maybe he is keeping them linked. I am not sure. it's so very, very close.
 
#112 ·
Just adding that while my WP mare can clean up at shows, we also run on a drill team, and are starting cattle sorting.... ;-)

Not speaking for all WP horses, but they do have more than one gear for the most part.
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#113 ·
It's easy to trash the disciplines that don't interest you or don't understand.:-( there is bad examples in all & questionable training practices. :cry: I may not take interest in some other breeds & disciplines but I can keep an open mind & truly appreciate good examples of other breeds & discipline/ training:) lack of respect for your fellow equine lovers interests just breeds more closed minds & creates your own false stereotypes of those sharing your own equine interests.:wink:
 
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