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Not really training, but dealing with a girthy horse?

4K views 19 replies 13 participants last post by  Karik 
#1 ·
So, I'm not sure where to put this, but I ride two times a week, I've been riding a QH gelding named SunShine since last December, and I LOVE him to death. He has his flaws, as does every other horse. Here's the thing though, he is really girthy. When you go to put on his girth, he seems fine, he pins his ears when you do pt it on, but when you start to like check it, with sticking your fingers under it to check the tightness, he pins his ears and tries to bite, or he sticks his head by mine with his ears pinned, he's attempted to bite me, what do I do about this? Generally I push his head away and say No. I dont' really like to hit horses unless they are doing something really bad, advice?

I have given Sunshine a good smakc though on his neck when he is bad.
 
#2 ·
Need to take your time putting the saddle on this horse, my horse is girthy sometimes. So when saddling up I put it on just snug not so he doesn't even normally flinch. Then as we are getting ready I do a hole either side till we are just about tight then walk to the mounting block final tighten and pull his front legs so nothing is pinching etc.
But on the manners side of it yeah pushing his head away is good idea, but certainly just take your time and for certain give his front legs a pull forward this just ensures no pinching which is often how a horse becomes a bit girthy or poor introduction to the saddle.
Good luck
 
#4 ·
Tie him up so he can't reach to bite, and then just be very gentle when you put the saddle and girth on.
Before you strap it too hard, pick up his front legs one at a time and''pull'' them up (like a horse does in those fancy trot photos), that will pull the skin right under the girth and make it more comfortable. Might help.

There isn't much else to do, if you know that he doesn't have a sore chest or illfitting saddle. Trying different girths can help, but since it's not your own horse...
 
#6 ·
well first, what type of girth?
If a western rope girth, I have known some horses to really dislike that type of girth...I used to ride one horse that was girthy when you used one of those, but was perfect with a regular styled girth.

Normally the habit starts because whomever broke the horse made the girth too tight too quickly. Best thing to do is put the bridle on first, then have a friend told the reins infront of the horse by the sides of his head so he can't turn his head. Also, check to make sure there are no sores on the girth area or nothing hard or pointy on the girth itself.
 
#7 ·
My horse does this too. When I go to do the girth up she'll pin her ears and turn her head to look at me, sometimes bumping me with her nose. She never bites, but its like she's warning me or something. Haha. I find she doesn't mind so much if I do it slowly, like KiwiRyder said. Do it up just a few holes and then tighten it later.
 
#8 ·
Here's the truth. He is not giving you permission to put the saddle on. When you ignore his feedback he gets more "big" by trying to bite. This is him saying, "Hey! You aren't listening to me!" So you can't blame him.

First check saddle fit. Have an experienced person do it who knows what they are looking at. Check for sore spots on his back, shoulders, and girth area. Make sure the girth isn't pinching, galling, etc. Make sure everything fits and is most comfortable for him.

Now here's what to do. I don't agree with tying the horse, this just limits him giving you feedback. So have a lunge line attached so you have more rope to work with. Have the saddle sitting out and ask him to sniff it. A lot of times people never let the horse investigate the saddle, so this alone will help change the tone. Pick up the saddle pad and let him sniff it. If he doesn't want to, don't try to make him. Pay attention to his expression. When does the behavior start? Does he tense up at the very beginning? The actual start of the issue might not start when you go to tighten the girth, it might start when you pick up the saddle. So pay attention. If his expression gets hard throw the pad on his back, then take it off, up, off, up, off, until he relaxes. Now, I hope you ride english!:lol: Now you need to do the same thing with the saddle. Put it on, take it off, etc. until he is okay with that. And it's SO important that when you put the saddle on you do it softly, like a hug. When he is okay with that, drop the girth and see if that causes any kind of reaction. If it does, keep doing that pattern until he's okay. When you reach for the girth if he pins his ears hold the girth and wait........and wait..........until he relaxes. When he does drop the girth. A sign of relaxing could even be one ear going forward. Reward the slightest try. Now here is a controversial idea....if he turns his head toward you with a nasty look on his face pop a treat in his mouth. This is actually NOT rewarding the negative behavior. He is expecting the experience to be bad. So when you unexpectedly make it a good thing, this will change his perception. I've done this with so many horses and it works like a charm. I would urge you to try that. If you decide not to, just continue with the desensitization and if he tries to bite block him with your elbow. Gradually hold the girth tighter and tighter until you can buckle it without him reacting. And when you do tighten the girth do it slowly, don't be jerky or fast. Use a lot of feel.

This will take time. So I would suggest that you make time in your schedule to be able to work on this without a time limit so you don't rush this. If you rush this the issue will not be resolved. Take the time it takes.
 
#9 ·
That could actually work, but only if everyone does it every time he'll be ridden.
Letting him sniff the saddle and see when he tense up is a good idea, but after that I'd still tie him for my own safety and to avoid getting angry or frustrated/scared by his behaviour.
 
#10 ·
A different perspective

Wow. I’ve walked away from this thread twice already but it’s like a drug, I keep coming back for a fix.
Sooooo,…. Remember that old Monty Python line about “and now for something completely different” ? How about allowing me to present a different perspective, not meant to offend anyone’s view? (This is somewhat rhetorical, ‘cause I'm not sure I don't want to run like heck after posting.) Just a crazy thought from decades of observing and training.

My first thought was the title “not really training but….” follows a common line of thought. Let’s back into that line of thought since it would be shared by the majority of horse owners today.

If horses and human are prey and predator critters, and horses have helped human civilization for some 5,000 years based on those characteristics, that might make a good starting point to find come common ground.
So, assuming some of the folks reading this would agree to that basic premise, some of the folks might also agree or even have observed that foals, when first approached by humans, are typically respectful of humans, most times to the point of being fearful.

If one can accept that horse are naturally respectful of humans (at least initially) at what point does a horse become disrespectful to the point of contemptuous enough to discipline, or at least threaten to discipline a human? I would suggest that this behavior is learned behavior. Not looking to start an argument, but if you buy the prey-predator theory supported by most behaviorists, and have observed, or at least accept the born-respectful-to-the-point-of-fear, then I don’t think suggesting the threats and intimidation by horses of humans is learned behavior is difficult to accept. (Wording is terrible, but I’m not terribly gifted.)

If you are still following my train of thought, then the question is “when/why did Sunshine change from being respectful, to being threatening (disrespectful)?”

Just to try to head off the reasons, or excuses for the (mis) behavior. If I take Sunshine to the vet and he needs some stitches are we going to have to double sedate him and twitch him or even lay him down to put in the stitches? I would suggest if your horse is always respectful and never believes it has a right to discipline me, I am a safer human because I have nurtured a safer (respectful) horse.

I try to get my students and clients thinking in terms that “they are responsible for everything their horse does or fails to do.” We teach that contemptuous disrespect is learned behavior, and the owner/handler is either going to nip the bad behavior in the bud when it starts to bud, or by allowing it, we are in fact encouraging the bad behavior. If the horse remains respectful, it is not going to try to discipline the human. I believe if we look at it as a training opportunity that needs immediate priority over sidepassing, changing leads, collecting etc we don’t have the bad behavior baggage with which to contend.

Again, where and when did this horse learn to disrespect the human? We could say we didn’t teach the behavior, but if the horse learned it, we humans must have abdicated our responsibility to prevent him for learning. I would conclude that this issue is very appropriate in the training section if you buy into that as the owner you are responsible for the health, welfare and training of your critter. If you are not responsible, who is?

I don’t want to waste the reader’s time, (or mine) by discussing how to handle behavioral issues, if we can’t even agree that this is a behavioral issue, or if we don’t agree that behavioral issues should be handled.

If I didn’t approve of that teenage kid threatening my teenage daughter’s if she didn’t do what he liked on prom night, I certainly don’t think anyone is being out of line expecting a horse not to threaten my daughter… or anyone else. In humans it is called consideration, respect, and good manners. I don’t see any reason to call it cute from a critter that instinctually feels a need to dominate (lead) his peers or be dominated by (follow) his peers.

Thanks for considering my view.
Mike
www.StartemRight.com
 
#11 ·
Something went wrong, but afterall when we (or at least I) work with horses, we are training to get that initial near-fear away and replace it with trust and a relaxed, trustful respect that has nothing with fear to do.
When he horse doesn't think we're scary anymore, there's room for the horse to try and take over.
It's our responsibility to teach the horse that it shouldn't, and that we still demand a certain level of obedience, but the natural respect/fear is gone.
 
#12 ·
Kind of going along the lines of what Zab said, if a horse is afraid of the human, and we earn his trust, once he is confident he will try to dominate the human. Some more than others. That's just how horses are. They do that in the herd, they vie for dominance every single day. Every time you interact with your horse you are teaching him......either to be sensitive or dull, scared or confident, attentive or introverted, etc. The negative things I mentioned people don't realize they are doing sometimes, but they are.

Ok that got off subject:lol:
 
#13 ·
I don't want to start a controversy so I have read ths thread several times. I was not going to originally reply but here I am. :lol:

I do like what Spirithorse suggested. Except for the treat part...IMO, If not done exactly right you may encourage more ear pinning and aggressive behavior. Like the bully at school that doesn't have to actually put your head in the toilet to get your lunch money. He can just act like he's going to and you'll happily fork over the money to keep your head out of the toilet.

You don't want to teach your horse that if he looks aggressive or actually nips that he'll get a treat.

Slow and easy is how I like to girth up. I tighten it, walk the horse a bit, re-check and tighten it, pull the front legs out so that no skin is pinched and then do a final snug-up and ride off to where ever.

Biting is one behavior that I don't tolerate. I have messed up and hand fed treats to my horses and one became a biter, A problem that I created and eventually he was punished for it. ( I felt the graze of teeth and heard the chomp of his teeth near my elbow one day while I was leading my horse. He got a good smack the split second I felt the the teeth...I was lucky, he was not. I felt like a turd because I caused the problem and he paid for it.) I have learned from it and don't use treats like I used to.

With time and patience and gentle girthing I think the horse will learn to accept the girthing without all the fuss. If it's a safety issue I would say tie the horse. But still offer the saddle and pad while you are tacking him up.

Be careful and good luck!!!
 
#14 ·
Dumas_Grrl reminded me of something I forgot to post. When you do tighten the girth do it in at least 3 cinchings. Move the horse around in between to make sure he doesn't have any issues with anything. Also, if you can, send the horse over a jump. If a horse is going to buck he will certainly do it after he goes over a jump, so it's a good test to see if the horse is okay.
 
#15 ·
Not really training? In a sense, everything we do with our horses is training. We are either reinforcing good actions or reinforcing bad actions. Allow a bad behavior to continue uncorrected is the same thing as training the bad behavior.

There are many good suggestions in this topic. I would like to add one more.

I have a horse the is "cinchy." Sounds very similar to your situation. I only had a chance to really work with her a little on this problem in the short time I have had her. However, I will NOT tolerate a biter.

What I did was place my bent arm in a position so that when/if she turned to bite, the side of her face would bang into my elbow. I never stuck her with the elbow, but moved it in such a way that it was always in the way if she moved her head to bite. I would sometime reinforce this with verbal and/or corrections. (Moving her in circles, etc.) It didn't take long for her to figure out that attempting to bite me resulted in her hitting her head on something (my elbow). She quickly gave up.

She still gets frustrated and doesn't like being saddled up (we are working on that using some of the same suggestions mentioned here). You can see she would _like_ to bite, but always thinks about it and finds another way to vent her frustration.
 
#16 ·
If your teenage son cursed you every time you asked him to clean his room, would you hand him $5.00 and tell him thanks. That makes as much sense as giving a horse a treat when he threatens you. If your horse was afraid you should see signs long before you are ready to saddle. If the horse has an injury that causes pain when he is saddled, then he definitely should see a vet right away. And a horse in pain would shy away from the pain not turn and confront it. So all that is left is a horse that believes he has the right to threaten you when he doesn't like something. If he doesn't receive a consequence that makes him recognize your authority, it Will escalate. I sincerely suggest you consult with a professional.
 
#17 ·
Just wanted to add I saw an awesome article in Practical Horseman about girthiness, (if it is due to physical discomfort), and the way to check if the horse has a knot in the fan-shaped muscle that goes from behind the elbow and girth area downwards that is responsible for the horse being able to pull his leg back, and if he is sore there and the muscle doesn't relax, he will be painful trying to step out.

According to herd behavior, giving food is a sign of submission, as an omega will 'give' to an alpha when the alpha gets bossy about grazing areas. But I make feeding time a time for training, they aren't allowed to walk in front, or crowd, and they must step back away from thier feed pan, facing me, (no pacing or pawing, that could miss them dinner)and not try and push me outta the way when they eat. It is sometimes the most challenging part (especially with my hubby's grey mare, she was very food aggressive, I did something different with her) but in the herd the alpha mare establishes herself over food and water first. So do I.

As long as the horse learns (and you can teach him, but you hafta have no fear of your horse for starters, and be pretty good about avoiding denial) to behave and not get all pushy and change his/her behavior, treats are ok, and can even help. Some horses have more pull than others, and the ones that are real reluctant to be with humans it can give them added incentive, but some horses become too pushy, and it has to be corrected or treats only given in the feed.
 
#18 ·
I don't agree to beating or smacking a horse if it's girthy; the moment I feel the teeth, yes, but not sooner. I'll warn with my voice if it gets too much of a treath..
Thats because girthy horses most often have a good reason for their behaviour; bad memories, pain or other things.. if I smack him or get mad as soon as he say ''hey, I REALLY don't like this!" I'll reinforce that saddeling is very uncomfortable and uneasy. If I give treats, I'll tell him ''good boy, do that again'', so I try to ignore the behaviour, be gentle and stay happy.

I act differently if the horse generally is very sour, pushy and treathens to bite other than just when I saddle.

My own horse has a slight problem with the saddle, he needs to move sometimes when I strap the girth, so I'm always prepared to losen the halterrope. He just backs a few steps and then he's calm, if I don't let him back he stands with the halterrope stretched, his head raised and is very tensed.
Sometimes he jumps about a bit when I sit up, I can't really punish him for that either because I know it's reflexes that he can't help and that he'll stop as soon as he got it out of his system after a few jumps. Riding every day seems to help and I can clearly see he's not really trying to get me off, he just has to do it. He only does it the first time I get up; if I fall off or jump off, he's calm and nice when I sit up again...
 
#19 ·
I'm going to agree with Zab. A horse always has a reason for acting girthy. And if you smack them, etc. you are just validating the horse's feeling that being saddled is a bad experience.

A horse will ALWAYS give you warning he is going to bite. And with a girthy horse, people get bitten when they have ignored the horse's first warning signs. So you can't blame the horse, he tried to tell the person but he/she didn't listen. That's why I suggest people look very hard for when the behavior actually starts....is it when the horse sees the saddle, is it when you put the pad or saddle on, or is it only with the girth?
 
#20 ·
Is he a sensitive horse? I have a sensitive horse that is VERY picky about his girth, he was girthy until I got a girth with elastic and the problem disappeared within a couple days. It was less the first time but it took a few days before he figured out that the girth was nothing to worry about anymore.

He even went back to being girthy when I got a new girth and the elastic was just too hard (barely stretched at all). So I went back to a girth with softer elastic and poof - again not girthy at all.

Could be a completely different problem with your horse (along the ideas already mentioned), just thought I'd mention it in case it helps. :)
 
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