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Not respecting space

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  • Pony not repecting space
  • my colt is not respecting me

 
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    12-31-2010, 01:02 PM
  #1
Foal
Not respecting space

So I have had issues with Guiness (formerly Brown) not respecting me period ( running at me ) and now that we worked through that which was mostly solved by me not being as timid. Now I can go in halter him up and I flex his neck side to side, put my arm over his back and hug him put the lead rope all over him and he doesn't have a problem with any of it. Yesterday we spent 45 min to an hour just walking. Usually he is right on top of me and when I stop he just tramples over me. So we just walked and about 20 min into it he fell back a little and stopped when I stopped and didn't even get near stepping all over me these are positive things but my problem is lungeing him. If I ask to do anything other than walk he puts his ears back, tosses his head and will come cutting across in front of me trying to cow kick, I don't think he would actually kick me but I am not keen on trying to find out. He does not do this with my FIL in fact he stays all the way out against the rail if my FIL lunges him. I don't have to lunge him to ride but I don't want to avoid this issue. I want to start from the ground up with him. I know he has had training but I really don't know what he's been trained in. We think possibly English but we aren't for sure. Any tips would be great. Guiness has been passed around and when he shows the least bit of aggresiveness he has been found a new home or just simply left alone. I just wonder if he is testing me to see if I will leave him alone or stick with him. Do horses think like that?
     
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    12-31-2010, 02:58 PM
  #2
Super Moderator
Hi Christina,

I am surprised you haven't had a lot of responses yet, but you will!
Guiness isn't testing you to see if you will leave him. But he is acting like a horse in a new herd; he is pushing against the herd members to see if they are above or below him. He has already estblished that your FIL is above him and apparently, that you are below him. Now bad feelings, that's just the way he sees it. And when your actions toward him are very mild, such as just leading him or asking him to walk, he tolerates them as acceptable from a subordinant. But when you put more pressure on him that would be acceptable from a subordinant, such as asking him to really move, he is insulted and tries to put you back in YOUR place.
That's where you need to wake him up. YOu'll have to surprise him and tell him "rule change!" (like Wife Swap, one of my favorite shows!)

You see, lunging or round penning isn't about making the horse go around and around for your amusement or for his exersize. It's about having a horse's mind in the correct orientation to the person who will then put their LIFE on his back. The horse you lead is the horse you ride. So , if he is running you over on the ground and not there mentally for you , he will not be there mentally for you when you are in the saddle.

When you next lunge him (and I assumed you were in a round pen, but am I wrong? Would be best if you could free lunge in round pen), you start him going around and if he comes in toward you, don't wait until he is close enough to cow kick you; go after him immediatley ! He starts to cut into the middle, putting his inside shoulder toward you, you leap up and down, stamp the ground AT him, flail the whip really madly and wake him up!
Of course, he'll buck and kick out and act really upset. Let him but don't stop until he leaps away from you. As big as he gets, you have to get bigger.

Once he has moved off of you, take a deep breathe (you will be shaking no doubt) and go right back to asking him to trot. Choose your direction and move him on. If he comes at you, go after him immediately. Don't let him start thinking that way. However, you don't go after him if he's just bucking out there , only if he comes toward you in any way.

As he starts to change his thinking about you, it will take less and less to remind him to stay out there. Maybe just a raised whip or hand and a strong "ah ah ah!". Move him in each direction, having him go up to trot, down to walk, up again in each direction. Canter him if he is ok, and when he lowers his head and licks and chews , stop and let him walk. If he walk toward you slowly and POLITELY, let him. IF he comes charging in toward you, move him back out. He must come toward you respectfully. And when he comes toward you, stop him before he comes closer than two arms lengths from you. Then YOU go toward him and pet him , put his halter on and put him away and leave him alone. Dont' cuddle very much, just a pet and good boy and walk away.
     
    12-31-2010, 03:19 PM
  #3
Foal
Wow lots of useful info I will have to try all of that. Yes he is huge 16.2 and he gets very pushy. He is not really in a round pen its more of a rectangle, its thier turnout and the horses are rotated and when someone wants to work thier horse then that's where we do it.


ETA: He is huge to me anyway being only 5'2 : )
     
    12-31-2010, 03:46 PM
  #4
Foal
Ok so I just read the thread about the horse who had some parelli training done with him and now is a "pocket pony" my Guiness has been taught parelli too (not by me) but by a girl that lives around my FIL before she got her current horse. I didn't consider that maybe that's why he won't leave me alone sometimes and no amount of rope swinging detours him. I did't really consider what she was doing with him as training either as I don't know much about the parelli stuff. I just want to have his respect and trust and have a good partnership with him. I want to be able to take him on the trail or in the arena and know that we are there for each other. It doesn't matter to me the sort of training I just want to get there however long it takes, we are both young and hopefully have a long while together. Plus I want to teach my two young children the same as they are very interested in learning but I have to learn so I can teach them. I know everyone has their own method of training and I just want to use common sense, trust and respect and I am guessing that I am going to have to pull from everywhere, maybe no one method works entirely?!? I don't mind being corrected if wrong but that just seems to make sense to me So far all advice given has been great and definitely common "horse" sense.
     
    12-31-2010, 07:34 PM
  #5
Trained
Hi,

Firstly a basically agree with Tiny. Guinness sounds like a rather 'assertive' type and as you have been timid with him, he's felt the need to take the lead role. Somebody's got to & at least he's confident enough in himself to want to, rather than a more timid horse that may become a barrel of nerves with a timid person. But now you're presuming to tell him what to do, he's telling you you have no right. While as I said, I basically agree with Tiny, that for both your safety, you need to change those rules, *earn* his respect and become the *trusted*, assertive leader in the relationship, given what you've told us(not trying to assume anything, only got your words...), it sounds like you need to gain more knowledge & experience before it would be a good idea IMO to attempt to get more confrontational. I would suggest you first & foremost find a good trainer/instructor(maybe your FIL?) to teach you & perhaps if possible, also start practicing with a well trained, well mannered horse, to gain a bit of skill before tackling him yourself.

Quote:
Originally Posted by azhorseluvr1222    
my Guiness has been taught parelli too (not by me) ..... I didn't consider that maybe that's why he won't leave me alone sometimes and no amount of rope swinging detours him. I did't really consider what she was doing with him as training either as I don't know much about the parelli stuff. I just want to have his respect and trust and have a good partnership with him.
Everything you do with a horse is effectively training him, whether it's conscious & intended or otherwise. I would advise you start off learning the theories/principles of learning/training. One great little easy to read book I recommend is "Don't Shoot The Dog" by Karen Pryor(not a dog book). Another one(that is a dog book but very relevant to any animal) is "Dogs Are From Neptune" by Jean Donaldson.

While a well trained horse is a well trained horse & IMO well taught '7 Games' and well understood & applied 'Parelli' type principles are invaluable, horses still require a good leader they can rely on, to feel comfortable & confident in following a person's lead. While I suspect that the Parelli part of his training at least was not well done either, to a certain degree training is not something someone can come and do to your horse & it will just automatically work for you - assuming you even know how to do it. A good trainer - Parelli style or otherwise - would have put a lot of time into ensuring *you* understood the principles & helping *you* learn how to use them *yourself*. So I wouldn't knock 'Parelli' because of this girl's bad example. Re 'pocket pony', she may have also just desensitised the horse to pressure further, without teaching him how to yield.
     
    12-31-2010, 07:52 PM
  #6
Foal
Quote:
Originally Posted by loosie    
Hi,

Firstly a basically agree with Tiny. Guinness sounds like a rather 'assertive' type and as you have been timid with him, he's felt the need to take the lead role. Somebody's got to & at least he's confident enough in himself to want to, rather than a more timid horse that may become a barrel of nerves with a timid person. But now you're presuming to tell him what to do, he's telling you you have no right. While as I said, I basically agree with Tiny, that for both your safety, you need to change those rules, *earn* his respect and become the *trusted*, assertive leader in the relationship, given what you've told us(not trying to assume anything, only got your words...), it sounds like you need to gain more knowledge & experience before it would be a good idea IMO to attempt to get more confrontational. I would suggest you first & foremost find a good trainer/instructor(maybe your FIL?) to teach you & perhaps if possible, also start practicing with a well trained, well mannered horse, to gain a bit of skill before tackling him yourself.



Everything you do with a horse is effectively training him, whether it's conscious & intended or otherwise. I would advise you start off learning the theories/principles of learning/training. One great little easy to read book I recommend is "Don't Shoot The Dog" by Karen Pryor(not a dog book). Another one(that is a dog book but very relevant to any animal) is "Dogs Are From Neptune" by Jean Donaldson.

While a well trained horse is a well trained horse & IMO well taught '7 Games' and well understood & applied 'Parelli' type principles are invaluable, horses still require a good leader they can rely on, to feel comfortable & confident in following a person's lead. While I suspect that the Parelli part of his training at least was not well done either, to a certain degree training is not something someone can come and do to your horse & it will just automatically work for you - assuming you even know how to do it. A good trainer - Parelli style or otherwise - would have put a lot of time into ensuring *you* understood the principles & helping *you* learn how to use them *yourself*. So I wouldn't knock 'Parelli' because of this girl's bad example. Re 'pocket pony', she may have also just desensitised the horse to pressure further, without teaching him how to yield.
I definitely agree with you and maybe I came across wrong but I don't disagree with parelli. I think there are very good techniques. Yes I am timid with him and he has taken the leadership role to an extent. The girl I was referring didn't take him from me but he was my FIL horse and she loved him and was working with him for a few months but then got her own horse that was about six months ago. I have just been working with him for about two months and he was given to me as a christmas present by my FIL.
So we have had progess today again, I just needed my FIL to give me a confidence boost. He came out in the turnout with me to show me what I need to do. Needless to say without going on forever I did take Tiny's advice. He definitely is intimidating me and I just have to learn to be leader not follower. Sorry if I came across wrong originally I think there is something to learn from every method of training. My FIL is a no nonsense kind of person so that helps me out a lot and has the respect and trust of all the other horses on his property so I ask him for advice a lot but I like to come here and ask too
     
    01-01-2011, 04:39 PM
  #7
Weanling
I think tinyliny has it exactly right. What isn't said, is a word we like to avoid, but it's sometimes a necessary place to start: fear. We like to say "respect" but if you think "you had better be afraid of me", or have something of that mindset, you'll be more effective.

I am not a very forceful person, and I use time like the dripping of water on a stone... if I wanted a quicker response, and I have at times, I would definitely get help from a stonger, more "fearful" trainer. It has never hurt my relationship with my horse, and surprisingly, she CAN transfer some of the respect from him to me, so long as I act EXACTLY as he does.
     
    01-01-2011, 06:30 PM
  #8
Foal
I was very timid also when we got our first horse. Luckily I found a wonderful trainer to help me. When round penning him he turned his butt to her and kicked (he was far away) she made him canter and canter and reversed him and reversed him so he knew that was not acceptable. You don't get mad but you do get more assertive. He too cow kicked. If he came in toward me while I was round penning him I would have to step towards him aggressivley and sometimes wave or tap him with the lunge whip to make him stay out of my space. He quickly learned to stay out.
At first I was afraid he would just run me over but she would stay with me while I round penned him to help me and then eventually she let me do it by myself. We have sinced moved and now I do it on my own but it took me awhile to not be afraid. Maybe you can find someone to help you? She really gave me the confidence and knowledge to do it on my own. To me you almost have to be like a parent disciplining your child. Stern, but not abusive, if that makes sense. As other posters said you have to be the leader. Make him move his feet.
     
    01-01-2011, 07:17 PM
  #9
Super Moderator
It really does help to have someone help you with round penning. Your father in law (FIL?) sounds like a good resource. It is really hard to do it all alone. I commend you for your bravery to keep trying.

Kind of think of it like, for as much pressure the horse puts on you, you must match it and a tiny bit more. So, if the horse just leans in a tiny bit, you may be able to assert your dominance by just pointing the whip at his shoulder and saying "out!". You work toward lighter and lighter pushes, but you may have to be really strong. Stronger than him. Fortuneately, once convinced, most horses don't challenge again.
     
    01-02-2011, 12:28 AM
  #10
Foal
Thanks for the support HF. As it turns out I was lungeing him today and he did kick at me but I kept his feet moving and I got him into a nice canter which he would never do before without making a huge fuss. He is actually teaching me to be a leader. My father in law helps a ton : ) He was the one who kept my fear at bay by staying with me then letting me do it by myself. I can move him around and when he starts crowding me I put a little pressure on him till he moves out then release when he does. Pressure and release, pressure and release, breathe, breathe I am the leader...this is my mantra. Guiness is a very smart and loving horse but I was letting him be the leader but I have been making a "rule change". Thanks again and I will keep you all updated
     

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