Overcoming new obsticles

I think this would have been a great thread if we didn't get into the right/wrong approach. I just want to point out that force doesn't mean the same thing to everyone. To one person, it can be breaking their spirit, to another, it simply means it's your way or the highway. Just like some people ride with whips and spurs, and others think it's abuse.

Me personally, my mare is such a character, and I'm sure not everyone agrees, but she "fakes" fear all the time. You can really tell if they are being difficult, just don't want to do it, or are actually terrified. Ricci is terrified of the trailer, so while working with her around the trailer, it's a very calm, very positive experience. If we're on a ride and she decides she's done and tries to go home, the ends of my reins meet her ass and we go, no ifs, ands, or buts. Sometimes, she's just being stupid, and it only takes a firm, "Ricci, knock it off!" for her to remember she has a brain. As far as coming across new obstacles, I don't think it's bad to get off and introduce a horse to a scary rock or bush or whatever, as long as you get back on and ride past it at least twice, and from both directions. Gracie, my yearling, I have no idea what will happen with her. She's stubborn, probably the most stubborn horse I've come across, and she is so smart, but she is also fearless. I've seen her not even blink at things that more or less scare most any other horse. She may require a little more force and dominance in our relationship than I need in Ricci's. Ricci and I are partners. I call the shots, but for the most part, we work together, and we handle things in a way that's good for both of us. Gracie is going to have to realize I'm boss, all the time, anywhere.

It is my personal belief that RiosDad seeks to challenge your methods, which in itself is a good thing. I think it comes across more attacking than he means. I'm not defending him, I'm just saying, there's nothing wrong with viewing your strategy from all angles and compare. =]

PS. RiosDad, just because you think "most people you've come across" are too whatever, doesn't mean we all are. You've only met a small fraction of the horse folk in the world. I'm 20 years old, and I'm a lot better with horses than most of the horse people I've met, pretty much all of them are significantly older. Does that mean pretty much all people who are significantly older than me don't know a horse's head from it's tail? Of course not.

And PSS, haha. I NEVER retreat. If it feels like she's going to react, I stop where we are, give her a millisecond, remind her she has a brain, and move on. She is NOT allowed to back up, ever, because I feel like it's too much her idea.

I am not breaking horses for other people. I am breaking them for myself. Yes I have taken on one month training prospects and you will get a horse with lots of miles on him in that month along with a good stop, turning, sidepassing, no leads but responsive.
I will ride problem horses and spend my sunday mornings at a large stable riding problems but that is a one ride only deal. Barn sour, buckers, runaways are a one shot only.
I never start a horse expecting to sell it. I put too much into the horse, hours and hours daily and I don't do that for living. I do it for the love of a good horse between my knees.

I agree with you. In fact I agree with almost all stuff you posted in this thread. All I was referring to is there are people who force horse to do something when a different approach should be taken. But they use whip (violently), or spurs, or any other "tool" to make the horse go. That's just not a way to do it. I use whip to encourage my mares when they just try to avoid the work (it happens sometime), but never on scared to death horse.

Jemma does it too sometime. In this case I just ignore her being "not in good mood" and make her go. Kiara doesn't fake - if she's scared she IS scared and you have to take it very quietly and persuade her it's OK.

Horses don't fake anything. They don't lie or cheat or steal. Humans do those things. All horses are lazy and want to do as little work as possible and they are prey animals so if it moves or makes noise it generally bothers them. Also anything that seems to have poor footing will naturally be avoided. That's why puddles are a problem, horses vision is such that they don't see well close up in front of themselves which is why they try to back up a little. They also have rather poor depth perception up close so what is actually a 2 inch deep puddle looks the same as a 5 foot deep puddle. To reitterate HORSES NEVER LIE!!

horses dont lie....but ponies do !

Knowledge not shared is knowledge lost. I am attempting to share my experience and I know it comes across as argumentative and I am sorry for that.
Part of my frustration is the fact that I have always been the guy on top, the one looking after everyone else and I get tired of it. I want someone to set the starndard for me??? I want to learn from someone else???
riccilOve I would never dismount to pass anything, nor would my horse expect me to. Honestly I can thing of nothing that frightens him. Park two bull dozers a few feet apart and we will walk without fear between them, no hesitation, no undo looking side to side.
No object that I run into, can think of will cause him turn asside.

They don't get this way by themselves, it is not fear of me but a confidence in themselves, in me that they will not be harmed.
Have you ever noticed that if an owner is mad, is ticked right off the horse listens?? they sense the mood and respond accordingly.
This mood doens't have to be anger. It can just be confidence in yourself and the horse senses this. Be bold, be assertive, accept nothing but perfect obedience and spoil the hell out fo them.
I cut up 8 nice plump apples every night to add to his dinnner

Ponies are a little more sinister than horses. I had a shetland pony that would have been a wild outlaw if he wieghed 1000 lbs. My kids could only ride him if I led him so when they got big enough I gave him to a lady with small children. I suspect when her kids are old enough to ride big horses he will get passed on again. Ponies are generally ill-manered because they are mishandled and pushed around instead of being treated like horses. Even ponies are more honest than the very best people.

My nature is gentle and I work equally well with timid abused animals. I broke a little 8 or 10 year old abused pony a few weeks ago and when my grandson astride the little pony and I showed up on the ladies doorstep she was so amazed to see her little timid pony boldly carry my grandson up to her door.
You have to feel when gentle is needed and when the bolt attitude is needed.
I don't beleive in whips other then for loading to move a horse forward. Never while training for anything else.

I don't understand this??? Has lying got to do with refusing to go through water??
Horses do Lie and dogs can count.
I was feeding apples tonight. The boys are lined up at the gate and I am going up and down the line giving them treats. A number of times my guy insisted that I missed his turn and want an apple out of turn. He out and out lied
Don't beleive dogs can count?? Put 3 treats in your pocket and only feed 2