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Overly Aggresive 4 year old mare

2K views 20 replies 16 participants last post by  qhgirlie 
#1 ·
If anyone could help, I'd be greatly appreciated. I have recently run into a problem with one of the horses I have in training; a 4 year old quarter horse. This is now the second month, in the first month we put 4 rides on her and bitted her. This month I was going to tune up her lunging and ground work, which she did decently the first month. She yields hind, shoulder, she backs, sidesteps, and knows how to lunge, fantastic horse & extremely smart. Recently she has began being VERY aggressive when cued to do anything, back, yield hind, etc, but especially during lunging. She will go out when asked, but will randomly, no warning whatsoever, charge me. Sunday she reared and tried to strike when cued to go out, then when I woahed her, she started galloping towards me and ended up knocking me over and hurting my leg bad enough to sit out for a few hours. That same day, I asked her to back, and after many tries, I went to go get my little carrot stick, and with it just in my hand, not touching her at all with it, she backed about a step, then bulked. I cued her to move back and she pinned her ears, and grabbed my arm and refused to let go for a good 10 seconds, leaving the nastiest bite I have ever gotten. This is getting progressive and I'm afraid if this continues I'm going to have to let the owner know she needs to find someone else.
** I have never hit or had to whip this horse**
 
#3 ·
I know what I would do with the carrot stick and what I would do with the lunge whip should she charge me.

You sound to slow on your feet, you have time when a horse is coming at you from a few feet away.

I cannot understand why you want to mess around lungeing when you have ridden her. Once a horse has been backed that is is for a few weeks, it will be ridden out on roads and tracks for at least a month for a good hour a day.

This horse has the makings of you and you need to get someone in to help you deal with the aggression.

Mention 'Carrot Stick' I assume you have been following Parelli, that, to my thinking, would be enough to make any horse get bored.
 
#4 ·
You need to rethink your training methods, and agree with the carrot stick mindset being worthless busywork.

Horse has your number, and you need to send it down the road, as if you don't, it will be beyond help soon.

How long have you been training and do you have a real background in horses, or just parelli?
 
#5 ·
when i first got a horse for my daughter, the horse was broke to ride
i started learning about lunging and watched a good amount of videos, including parelli

first few times was fine, no issues
then she started charging me
me being new, i had absolutely no idea what was going on
i just panicked, and tattoo'ed her front side with the lunge whip as she was charging me
she hasn't charged me since
that led me to believe i got the answer right the first time
 
#6 ·
I've got to agree with jmike and Foxhunter.

Lunging really isn't needed once she's been under saddle, you'd probably have been fine dropping it after the first month unless the owner was dead set on her being PERFECT at it. It's just plain and simple a skill that isn't used all too much, where being ok rather than great works just fine.

If a horse is being that aggressive, a smack with the whip is completely justified. That is the method the horse will understand instantly means 'I am the boss, you are not to be aggressive with me' considering it is similar to what would happen if they tried that on another horse (they'd be kicked). She tested you, you failed the test, she doesn't respect you and is treating you like she would a lesser member of the herd.

Are you doing ANY form of punishment for that behavior, including the biting?

If you are not able to control this horse and do not know how to deal with dangerous behavior (which seems to be the case considering the behavior seems to be escalating), you need to stop and return the horse to the owner before you get hurt.
 
#9 ·
I use a stout rope. A 3yr old suddenly charge me, I stood my ground and she got one gawd-awful slap with the end of the rope behind her jaw. This caused her to veer away on the run until she hit the end of the rope and the knotted halter bit in. I was ready for it. I asked her to move at the walk. When she got to the same spot as before, the scenario was repeated. She learned that charging a person didn't pay. She was mindful after that.
 
#10 ·
I don't have any other advice beyond what has already been posted. Once lunging is achieved it can get boring. Once riding starts, build on it. etc.

What I would like to add however is, a few years ago I had to put down a horse for the same issue. I had him evaluated by two different pro trainers and both said the same thing. He's dangerous, unpredictable and can never be trusted. He had gotten so bad, that you could be standing there talking to someone and out of the blue, he'd charge with teeth bared, ears pinned, fiery eyed and striking. Then go back to his business of grazing. He was already like this when I got him. My choice was I could send him to auction and risk some little 9 year old girl falling in love with him and she'd get her head bashed in or he'd end up on a slaughter truck to Mexico. Neither of those were acceptable to me so I had him put down and cut my losses. Truly sad.

Please get professional help before your mare gets too far.
 
#11 ·
I'd like to start this off by saying that the horse in question is my horse and Christen is no longer working with her per my request. I purchased her back in June as a first horse and a project horse, with the oversight of my instructor.

Some background on her: her first owners (the ones who foaled her) were, by all accounts, head cases. Not only was my mare an accidental foal, but they thought proper handling was letting her fish out treats from their pockets and then let her loose in a pasture. At best they halter trained her, and even that is stretching it a bit.

Her second owners were much better but even they still had their faults. They got her to a decent space but when the owner's husband and her primary handler became quite ill, the wife was left to care for her. This woman was extremely timid around horses and while she reprimanded them for unsavory behavior, she was not consistent enough nor had the time to give Echo the mileage she desperately needed.

However, despite her less than stellar first 3 years (she is 4 in February). Echo is not an overly aggressive mare as Christen has depicted. She would much rather fall asleep while being brushed, eat, or get loved on rather than pick a fight. Though she does have her faults, strictly in her previous training or rather the lack there of.

When I first got her it was common occurrence to have her shoulder into you when being lead, rush through gates, refuse to lead or try to get in front of you, wouldn't tie (would sit back and try and break every halter I put on her), didn't know how to lunge, stepped into you, lipped at your pockets, and was otherwise a bratty little kid. Behaviors that would have a lot of people question why I got her in the first place, and believe me I had my moments.

After a few months of consistent work on manners and ground work (would have been shorter, but she decided she was a cross country jumper and scraped up her leg), she is the complete opposite of the headcase I brought home. Though you have to remind her of a few things occasionally, but it's rarely more than a tug on the lead, a tap on the hip with my hand or whip/crop, and a little bit of backing her up and she is back on point. She now ties without complaint (She has pulled back twice in the past two months and that was only because she was being a fidget and ended up spooking herself with the other end of the lead rope.), though she can get a little ants in the pants dance if you take too long in the tack shed. Mind you, this might not seem like a huge accomplishment to some - but it was a huge milestone for her. In fact, more often than not, if she isn't sucking on the other end of the lead rope she is dozing off and wiggling her lips. She has also gotten down to leading properly with minimal reminders, unless in a new place and then she develops ADD and requires a much firmer hand to get her focus back. She picks up her feet, yields her hind and shoulder with just a point of my finger, and stands while being tacked with absolutely no fuss.

Now, this goes without saying that in order to be at this point with my mare you have to be consistent and authoritative - as with virtually any horse and especially young ones... she likes to test the boundaries to see if you are indeed still a qualified leader. If you let her get away with an inch she will soon be taking a mile. Which is primarily the reason why Christen has come on here for help. I hired Christen to help me on weekends to put a little bit extra into Echo before she was ready to be ridden. This was only after my instructor, due to personal reasons, wasn't able to continue coaching our progress. Rather than continuing on my own, I wanted to be sure I found someone with experience just for that little bit of extra. After explaining my situation I had Christen come out to meet me and my horse to get a better feel for our needs, in which she assured me she had experience working with horses similar to mine. The first few weekends were fine but I began to notice that rather than correcting those little testing behaviors my mare likes to throw at you, she simply avoided them and continued on or switched to something else. (Something which she admitted to doing herself when I discussed this with her.)

It got to the point that I would have to enter the arena because Echo would refuse to back for her, or I would be telling her over the fence to correct her little nips, stamps, or bratty-tantrum refusals. She began correcting her, sort of, but now my mare was choosing her own punishments by walking in circles around her. This completely defeated the purpose and only further cemented the idea that Christen was not the boss, Echo was. Which, when she decided to free lunge her in the arena - the charging was not malicious with the intent to hurt but more of a get back in your place, (nor did I ever see Echo latch on to her arm for 10 seconds, and I was present during every session she had with my horse.) (She was also in heat, and requires a lot firmer (but fair) hand.) Something in which she was trained to do from lack of proper leadership. This is something that has NEVER happened to me, my instructor, or barn owner. In fact, Echo has only bitten me once and she got her hide tanned with the whip for it and has not attempted to do it to me again. I'd also like to point out that four rides were not put on her nor was she been bitted as she needs her wolf teeth taken out before I am willing to do that. (Yes, she has wolf teeth... something which even surprised my vet and will soon be the bane of my wallet.)

I do believe that Christen has a lot of potential with horses but I believe in this case she bit off more than she could chew, and just needs more time and experience with qualified instructors.
 
#12 ·
I always preface my posts on training by saying that I am NOT a trainer. so, any feedback I give is based on what I am reading in your post, and what I guess might be going on, and not on a lifetime of training and personal experience, as many here can offer you.

If anyone could help, I'd be greatly appreciated. I have recently run into a problem with one of the horses I have in training; a 4 year old quarter horse. This is now the second month, in the first month we put 4 rides on her and bitted her. This month I was going to tune up her lunging and ground work, which she did decently the first month. how did she lunge before the problems started? was there any hint of her true attitude then?She yields hind, shoulder, she backs, sidesteps, she yields this from what cue? and with what sort of attitude?and knows how to lunge, fantastic horse & extremely smart. Recently she has began being VERY aggressive when cued to do anything, how are you cueing? back, yield hind, etc, but especially during lunging. does this mean that asking her to go forward is the major issue? She will go out when asked, but will randomly, no warning whatsoever, charge me. Sunday she reared and tried to strike when cued to go out, then when I woahed her, she started galloping towards me and ended up knocking me over and hurting my leg bad enough to sit out for a few hours. how far away was she when she turned and started galloping in?That same day, I asked her to back, and after many tries, I went to go get my little carrot stick, and with it just in my hand, not touching her at all with it, she backed about a step, then bulked. I cued her to move back and she pinned her ears, and grabbed my arm and refused to let go for a good 10 seconds, leaving the nastiest bite I have ever gotten.how close to the horse were you? (this sounds simply awful! and I am cringing at the pain) This is getting progressive and I'm afraid if this continues I'm going to have to let the owner know she needs to find someone else.
** I have never hit or had to whip this horse**

overall, I feel that you are in over your head on this one. even if you've trained many horses, I think every trainer has that horse that is beyond them, and where they need to call on a more experienced trainer to help them. this is it.
don't wait, do it. this is not something to put off to tomorrow.
 
#14 ·
I don't want this to sound like a "mother post", but it probably will anyway.

I looked around, and saw that Christen has only just turned 15. Personally, no matter how experienced a 15-year-old said they were with horses, I would not agree to someone so young working with my young project horse. I mean no offense to anyone, but years really do help with experience.

It's fortunate that Christen realized she didn't yet have the skills required to help this mare, but unfortunate that the mare's training has been allowed to backslide. It's going to take a bit longer now to get her over the new problems, and back to where she was originally before this training. No worries though- you'll get through it!
Good luck!
 
#15 ·
I agree, though hindsight is always twenty-twenty. Thankfully, Echo is NOTHING like what is described in Christen's post to any one else who handles her. I've lunged her a few times to get a bit of the brattiness out since this incident and have had no problems whats so ever. A grumpy face at first but one correction and she was a lady. I have seen and dealt with overly aggressive horses in general and it would take a lot more than a smack on the butt to get them in line. This is not at all the case with my horse, otherwise she would have already been packing long before then. Echo is, by all accounts, a spoiled kid and simply needs to be dealt with in the same fashion. Firm but fair.
 
#16 ·
Sounds like this horse has the smarts to quickly figure out who she can and can't mess around with
Until she's in a place in her education where she understands that she has to behave around everyone she's best left to be handled only be people you (the owner) know can deal with her.
I've had horses like this and even though they're wonderful with the right people they're still a real danger to anyone they think they can dominate.
 
#17 ·
Exactly that last sentence. I personally wouldn't want this kind of mare but if she means that much to you, see what you can do about spending that extra time with her yourself or with another instructor together. This isn't Heartland - a 15 year old won't be any miracle worker. And even if you can take this horse to the ends of the earth and back she probably won't be this way inherently. It'll just be what she tolerates with *you* as her person.
 
#18 ·
**Disclaimer: I am NOT a pro-trainer, so take anything I say with a grain of salt and your own knowledge of your horse.

** I have never hit or had to whip this horse**
If you ask me, you're going to have to start. That behaviour is EXTREMELY rude and disrespectful, and 100% unacceptable. Not to mention downright dangerous. My horses know better than to even threaten to nip or bite. If they do, they get a loud "Hey!", and the one time my gelding actually did nip me, he got smacked HARD on the neck and I've never had a problem with that since.

You have to start saying NO, and meaning it! Your horse has crossed the line from threatening to hurt you to actually going through with it.

I know it's never pleasant to have to physically reprimand a horse, and if it came down to a contest of strength and aggressiveness, the horse would win every time. But it's not about that, it's never about hitting your horse. It's about being more dominant than your horse. You have to mentally hit harder than your horse can bite, charge, kick, stamp, or whatever. You have to win the mental battle. When you smack your horse, you're not doing it out of anger or for "payback". You're smacking, or reprimanding, in order to say "That is NOT okay and I will not accept this behaviour. Do it again and you will be disciplined again."

Of course, there is a line that separates discipline from punishment. I don't like punishment. Punishment can often go way too far and escalate to abuse. Discipline has to be swift, firm, and only related to the behaviour that warrants it. If my horse bites me, they get a "Hey!" and a smack at the same time, and then I'm done. I don't have to go any further than that. If my mare starts acting buddy sour on the way to the arena, she gets a tap with the crop and then I am done until she acts up again. Never do more than necessary, and sometimes that can be hard to distinguish.

It takes time, patience, and forgiveness. And all of that takes discipline of yourself, before you can properly discipline your horse. It's a process that we are all in different stages of learning, and I would STRONGLY recommend getting a professional out and maybe even shadowing a trainer.

As far as what you need to do specifically, that is up to you. I would go back to the round-pen and work on demanding respect from her. You have to be EXPLOSIVE if she charges you, be loud, yell, jump around, make her uncomfortable and respectfully fearful of what will happen if she decides to be dangerous. Don't be afraid to hit her with the carrot stick. That stick won't hurt her no matter how hard you hit (just never her face), but if she runs into you? That's not a risk worth taking.

I would also suggest doing so in SHORT sessions. No more than ten minutes, and fewer if she shows progress. The second she backs off and starts acting respectfully towards you, call it a day and let her be a horse. Or, spend a short session in the pen before each ride, every other day. Do things to keep it interesting, like putting a pole in the pen that she has to trot over or something like that.

It really depends on your and your horse. I'm just spitting out ideas, but it all depends on what you feel comfortable with doing and what your horse will respond the best to.

If you can't get a trainer out to help you, keep researching. It does sound like you're a bit in over your head. As another poster said, this isn't Heartland and you're not Amy Fleming. At this point, your safety has been compromised with this horse and you really need to change your methods if this is how your horse has been behaving. It's not her, it's you, and you are the one who needs to change before she can.

So, don't give up. Research, get help in some form, get a second opinion, get someone with more experience out there and learn everything you can about this horse, how she responds to situations and where her buttons are.

You got this, just go slow and steady and keep reaching out for advice. :)
 
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