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Picking a fight vs. disipline?

3K views 20 replies 9 participants last post by  Saddlebag 
#1 ·
Hello! I'm on my way to a show so bare with me * should have done this yesterday :? - or later * Anyway, my question mostly is for mares. I have always owned geldings and if they did anything wrong it was quite easy to tell them "no". But my mare, well, she used to kick out very quick sharp blink of an eye kicks, straight back, cow kick-whatever. But getting her used to me and knowing I'm not going to beat on her and working with her everyday she has stopped. She wouldn't let you anywhere near her head before, except to bridle she would shoot up. Many signs of a horse with some.. handling issues.... *cough*

But there are times when I bath her, groom her, fuss with her hind end area or just taking too long with her feet exc. she will just do a little twitch or swish of the tail, all the signs that she will kick out. She will lift her leg staight up then back down.

So I know how to fix this with a gelding, quite easy, but with her...not sure. One person has tried smacking her with a crop on the leg and she gets mad and gets worse. She has come so far, i couldn't lift her back feet to pick them out because she would just shoot with those legs when you touched her. I can do anything with her but now but I don't want to leave it and it actually become a big problem. She has hind shoes with corks and one good kick on me or someone else.. I don't even want to think what a "good one" would do.

So my question is, how to fix/ prevent this from getting worse without picking a fight with my horse. I have asked at the barn and they said smack her with a whip. I would like to get more options before I do that. She has come SO far, I do NOT want to put her back.
 
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#2 ·
Instead of a physical correction, try a work correction. She gets stroppy, you make her back up till she gets it. Or you make her leg yield, or you make her turn on her forehand a few rotations.

I know what you mean.. this mare would do the same thing if someone physically struck her she'd get worse. So I growled instead and put her to work.. and I became her herd mate. She didn't disrespect me again
 
#6 ·
Instead of a physical correction, try a work correction. She gets stroppy, you make her back up till she gets it. Or you make her leg yield, or you make her turn on her forehand a few rotations.
^^I agree with this. I was watching a Clinton Anderson video where he was working with a kicker. Whenever the horse threatened to kick, or kicked, he made it back up fast, and then yield its hindquarters. Then he immediately went back to what he was doing before, acting like nothing had happened. If the horse threatened/kicked again, he did the process again. It took a little while, but eventually the horse stopped kicking, and was relaxed when Clinton picked up its feet.
 
#3 ·
I'm of a differing thought about this. In a herd situation, this mare would kick out, and either be disciplined until she realized her place in the herd, or would become dominant and therefore a bully, as she would keep repeating this until a firmer horse was introduced into the herd.

AND, have you made absolutely sure there is nothing physically wrong here, as in peritonitis, spinal problems, "mare" problems within? And that will mean more intensive tests than a vet having her walked around and looking at her, and doing a few tests just as temp taking. IF, and this is a big IF, she has something going on internally? You need to fix that first of course.

We had a TB colt, that was a crypt, but he was put into training. Ran pretty good for little bit, but then would show pain that got worse. X-rays revealed that the missing testicle had lodged right up against his spine in saddle area. It had migrated that far, or been there all along? But point is that without a clear look at what is happening inside? You may be seeing the signs of a horse in unremitting pain too.

And you also didn't say what breed?

The pain issue addressed, let me go on to say.

I understand the wonder about forcing the issue, and if it was just the tail twitching? I'd ignore it, but to me, the longer you let this sign of disrespect go? The bolder she is going to get. Right now she is at the "I DON'T like you telling me what to do" and is testing the waters, so to speak, to see just how bold and brassy she can be would be my thoughts.

Also, this will escalate until anyone walking by her, or around her could be fair game. For instance, in the warm up ring, walking her back to stall, or whatever, and she could add more to it too.

And there is a big difference in horse's mind, as to "deserved correction" and undeserved, (although with TB mares? They will hold a grudge about being gotten onto for behaviors and wait for timing.) And many a horse has been overcorrected by person, who would not get tough enough at first to get point across, but just kept flailing away.

With aids? Gentle, gentle, firmer FIRM. With correction? FIRM, FIRM, FIRMER! That stops the escalating anger and frustration level when it is fixed simply and firmly the first time, rather than human beating themselves into a frenzy. And not coincidentally the horse. THAT leaves a mark on both. A firm correction, one meant to end the problem quickly would have worked.

Pain ruled out? I don't think being kind/ignoring it/work is what is needed. I'd either tie leg up when working with her, or put kicking chains/hammers on her, and let her correct herself, or I would keep shank on her and correct her as needed.

To me, when you "move" a horse like this for correction, it may actually be what she is wanting, to do something, and working is adding to it, if work is a correction. You want her to stand still, so I'd find a patience tree, add some anti-kicking devices, and let her stand tied for several hours, and I would continue to correct her as needed.
 
#4 ·
To me, when you "move" a horse like this for correction, it may actually be what she is wanting, to do something, and working is adding to it, if work is a correction. You want her to stand still, so I'd find a patience tree, add some anti-kicking devices, and let her stand tied for several hours, and I would continue to correct her as needed.
That is a good point; duly noted.
 
#5 ·
Run a stout rope around her leg and see-saw it up and down and remain out of kicking range. As you do this, sometimes pull on the leg just so she feels pressure. When it's around her anke, pull it forward until the toe clears the ground, then release. Stay close to her rib cage so that you're not pulling her leg sideways. Her bridle evasion is simply her outsmarting you. These issues are not gender related. There are helpful videos on youtube to help with these issues.
 
#7 ·
If it were my horse I would start working them. Simply giving them a whack is just going to get them more stressed out. With my gelding my old trainer would give him a whack to cure everything, but he would bite her twice as hard. He didn't really take that and would plot his revenge. But if he does something now I go about it a different way and he is much more respectful. So if your horse would try to kick you, you immediately untie her and make her yield her hindquarters, forequarters, do circles, back up until you can lead her up to where she is tied and get her to stand there respectfully. You might have to do this a thousand times, maybe only once or twice. If she is a hot headed breed obviously running her will do squat, but get her to think twice about kicking you. Most importantly, get that mare to think. But change it up and keep them guessing, you also wouldn't want them to automatically assume that they are going to run in circles blindly; keep there feet moving, but on your terms. When I do that with my gelding he hardly knows what just happened and takes a deep sigh and decides he'll keep his mouth to himself and feet planted.

Every time I got a new horse we encountered this problem. They wouldn't be like this to people, but this is the behavior that they'd have out in pasture the first few days or even weeks. For example, when we got our most recent mare Tenakee, Moe (my gelding and alpha) didn't take kindly to her just ignoring him. She just puttered away and paid no due to him, and if he got close she'd pin her ears and whack him in the chest. The second she did that he would pin his ears back and wanted that mare to RUN! He probably would have chased her around and bit her all day if I hadn't made it clear to him that he still had to be respecting me no matter if a new mare was around or not. But you need to be like Moe, maybe not in an as obnoxious way as he is with his mares; but when she disrespects you make her move her feet. Make her want to know where you are and figure out that it is a haven to stand still and listen.

This is just what I figure with my horses, maybe I'm right, maybe I'm wrong; but it seems to work just fine with my creatures so I wish you the best. But you might not want to do this at a show, but if you could practice a few times before it could help. But it is something that needs consistency until you don't need to do it.
 
#8 ·
You may need to play around with things to determine what SHE considers fair discipline. For example, using my mare:

A poke in the ribs with an elbow or fist = fair.

A light swat with a crop = unfair, fight.

Backing up = fair.

Turning in circles = unfair, fight.

Smack her in the butt with a rock = fair.

Dig my heels into her, any reason = unfair, fight.

So I play by her rules, and discipline, for her, includes backing up, a poke with an elbow, a pop in the butt with a stone...but NOT digging in my heel, turning in tight circles, etc.

My other two horses have their own ideas of fair/unfair, and so I treat them differently.
 
#9 ·
You may need to play around with things to determine what SHE considers fair discipline. For example, using my mare:

A poke in the ribs with an elbow or fist = fair.

A light swat with a crop = unfair, fight.

Backing up = fair.

Turning in circles = unfair, fight.

Smack her in the butt with a rock = fair.

Dig my heels into her, any reason = unfair, fight.

So I play by her rules, and discipline, for her, includes backing up, a poke with an elbow, a pop in the butt with a stone...but NOT digging in my heel, turning in tight circles, etc.

My other two horses have their own ideas of fair/unfair, and so I treat them differently.
that's one way to do it...
 
#13 ·
I do not tiptoe around my horse. However, I also see no reason to 'punish' her in a way she doesn't understand.

Someone who treats every horse the exact same way needs to ride ATVs, not horses. Horses are individuals, and treating them like individuals is not bad riding, or being afraid of your horse.

It might be different if I rode for work, but I ride for fun. And a horse with some spunk and individuality is, to me, a lot more interesting to ride than a pushbutton horse. If I wanted that, I'd be riding a dirt bike.
 
#16 · (Edited)
I do not tiptoe around my horse. However, I also see no reason to 'punish' her in a way she doesn't understand.

Someone who treats every horse the exact same way needs to ride ATVs, not horses. Horses are individuals, and treating them like individuals is not bad riding, or being afraid of your horse.

It might be different if I rode for work, but I ride for fun. And a horse with some spunk and individuality is, to me, a lot more interesting to ride than a pushbutton horse. If I wanted that, I'd be riding a dirt bike.
Sounds like she understands discipline, but resents it. This post isn't meant to argue, bsms, I like your posts. Agree with most of em. Just want to make people think

What I'm saying is that some horses need to develop more tolerance. They need to be more forgiving so that they're safer to be around. Would you let kids ride your horse? If so, are you constantly hollering instructions like "don't do that" or "she doesn't like that". Would you feel confident that if a kid or beginner was turned loose on your horse alone without your guidance that he or she would be safe, even if they bumped her wrong or made a mistake?

Maybe you're ok with her temperament because you're the only one that will ever ride her. Maybe she doesn't have to suit anybody except you. And that's fine. I've had horses that I didn't want anybody else to mess with or ride. They only had to suit me. BUT ever since I became a daddy, it's MY responsibility to have solid, forgiving, safe horses for my kids. Yes, I do make part of my living horseback, but for me, that's not the only reason I do things like this. I've seen too many horse wrecks that should have never happened. Horses just weren't conditioned to accept things humans (beginners) do. If I can see that a horse is a time bomb because they're resentful and defiant, it's my job to address that before a child or inexperienced person gets kicked, thrown, etc.

I'm not saying I whip or beat on horses. I don't. Most everyone I know is rougher on a horse than me cause I know how to get the job done without a fight, I definitely don't go out wanting to have a war with a horse. No more than people go to work in an office wanting to get in a fight with a co-worker, But I do condition em to be ok with scary movements, touches, sounds, and all that. And if I have to work with a pissy horse and I spank it for doing something dangerous and he retaliates, I will increase pressure until THE HORSE submits. That's not being mean, it's keeping a big athletic animal from hurting somebody. When the heat is on, you don't want a horse in your face fighting. Basically it's about teaching a horse to hold his composure, even when his "fight or flight" instinct tells him to act out. It's not about making a horse like a machine, just teaching them to conduct themselves like good lady and gentleman horses.
 
#14 ·
Man I'm so contradictory on the surface, lol!

But no I agree, horses are individuals. I wouldn't use a crop and smack my horse crazy cause that wouldn't register with him as a correction.. that would be "OMG SHE'S GOING CRAZY.. MUST ESCAPE!!!" and he'd work himself into a frenzy.

So I see where you are coming from.
 
#15 ·
The only time I hit a horse is in self defense because it decided to go over top of me. I do the annoying tapping. How/why do you hit a horse with a rock? If it is turning rump? A friend did that, the horse turned and she accidently knocked the lens out of her horse's eye, resulting in blindness.
 
#18 ·
Wow great info! I'm so glad I posted, I thought I wouldn't get anything back. Thank you for all the idea's and working on her terms. I know I can't "Love" my horse into good behaviour and that these minor things may very well slowly become overwhelming for me.

I'll try these out when the time comes and let you all know what works best for us.
 
#19 ·
Update!: kicked out at me today, I guess instincts came in and I yelled "hey" or something.. She moved up so I quickly moved up with her to get out of the line of fire. And she did it again I made her back all the way down the barn and move to the side. She looked more scared than I have ever seen her. Anyway, that was weird she probably thought I was gonna beat her. So went on and had a great ride outside she was amazing as usual. Back in the barn ... Same thing.... She was showing me signs, that's how I missed the first kick. Lucky for me I've been around horses for so long I usually know where all legs will end up before the horse does.

So, untacking she did a tail swish the muscle twitch exc and it was on her right side, same side as earlier before the ride. I noticed this getting worse since we had a massage theripist out, and I'm starting to think this may be a pain issues. There shouldn't be, teeth just done, semi custom saddle, constant care and look overs 2x a day, good turn out and proper warming up and cooling out... But since my horse isn't flat out kicking I'm kinda thinking she doesn't want to. ( if that makes sense)

So I will call the vet to check her out just to double check. But do any of you think that the massage theripist -could- have brought out something?
 
#20 ·
Agreed with this not being a gender issue. My gelding is much the same undersaddle, he does not gel well with punishment or corrections. He has a very dominant personality.

A good RMT will be able to pick up a lot. My RMT has done wonders for my horse's TMJ and keeps him working through increased collection with massage throughout his hindquarters. He adores her. Any RMT worth their salt is able to suggest veterinary, chiropractic or farriery work which needs to be addressed.

Anyways, the trick, as bsms has pointed out, is figuring out what is acceptable (to the horse) and not picking fights, all while advancing the training. The good thing (for me) about having a horse that is offended by the use of the whip is that when I am required not to show with it, it is good because I don't need it. However in the training it is essential so we have done some desensitizing to it. Because that's what it is, sensitivity, not bad behavior.
If you are willing to work on yourself and your handling techniques, by the time you "get through to" this mare, it will be you that has improved, not she, and you will be a better, more sensitive, handler for it.

Good luck!
And good to hear you've already had some response from the mare.
 
#21 ·
We always hear of timelines to discipline a horse. This young lad didn't know that. He was about 14 and would walk several miles to get a pony and would fetch the mail for every one along the way. Every day the pony bucked him off. One day it not only tossed him but it took off, not in the direction of home. The lad found him about 1/2 mi. away, reins caught in the bushes. He was so mad he delivered a hard slap to the pony's jaw. That was the last time the pony dumped him.Something tells me the pony saw him in a whole new light.
 
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