Picking a fight vs. disipline? - Page 2
   

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Picking a fight vs. disipline?

This is a discussion on Picking a fight vs. disipline? within the Horse Training forums, part of the Training Horses category
  • Never pick a fight with a horse
  • Horse resents discipline

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    05-26-2012, 10:47 PM
  #11
Showing
Quote:
Originally Posted by AmazinCaucasian    
that's one way to do it...
I think that gives the mare more control of the relationship. Yes you need to find what works for her.. but at the same time not say "here, choose how I should discipline you/correct you today"

Not saying it's a bad way to go about it.. just be careful with it. You know your horses so that's good that it works for you. I wouldn't do it with a horse I don't know though.
     
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    05-27-2012, 09:14 AM
  #12
Yearling
Yeah, skye it's not my style either. I won't have a horse that you have to be that careful around. You should be able to make mistakes without worrying about them retaliating.

Some people don't mind having to tiptoe around their horse, but I want mine tolerant.
Skyseternalangel and Evansk like this.
     
    05-27-2012, 10:56 AM
  #13
Trained
I do not tiptoe around my horse. However, I also see no reason to 'punish' her in a way she doesn't understand.

Someone who treats every horse the exact same way needs to ride ATVs, not horses. Horses are individuals, and treating them like individuals is not bad riding, or being afraid of your horse.

It might be different if I rode for work, but I ride for fun. And a horse with some spunk and individuality is, to me, a lot more interesting to ride than a pushbutton horse. If I wanted that, I'd be riding a dirt bike.
     
    05-27-2012, 11:08 AM
  #14
Showing
Man I'm so contradictory on the surface, lol!

But no I agree, horses are individuals. I wouldn't use a crop and smack my horse crazy cause that wouldn't register with him as a correction.. that would be "OMG SHE'S GOING CRAZY.. MUST ESCAPE!!!" and he'd work himself into a frenzy.

So I see where you are coming from.
     
    05-27-2012, 12:09 PM
  #15
Showing
The only time I hit a horse is in self defense because it decided to go over top of me. I do the annoying tapping. How/why do you hit a horse with a rock? If it is turning rump? A friend did that, the horse turned and she accidently knocked the lens out of her horse's eye, resulting in blindness.
     
    05-27-2012, 02:03 PM
  #16
Yearling
Quote:
Originally Posted by bsms    
I do not tiptoe around my horse. However, I also see no reason to 'punish' her in a way she doesn't understand.

Someone who treats every horse the exact same way needs to ride ATVs, not horses. Horses are individuals, and treating them like individuals is not bad riding, or being afraid of your horse.

It might be different if I rode for work, but I ride for fun. And a horse with some spunk and individuality is, to me, a lot more interesting to ride than a pushbutton horse. If I wanted that, I'd be riding a dirt bike.
Sounds like she understands discipline, but resents it. This post isn't meant to argue, bsms, I like your posts. Agree with most of em. Just want to make people think

What I'm saying is that some horses need to develop more tolerance. They need to be more forgiving so that they're safer to be around. Would you let kids ride your horse? If so, are you constantly hollering instructions like "don't do that" or "she doesn't like that". Would you feel confident that if a kid or beginner was turned loose on your horse alone without your guidance that he or she would be safe, even if they bumped her wrong or made a mistake?

Maybe you're ok with her temperament because you're the only one that will ever ride her. Maybe she doesn't have to suit anybody except you. And that's fine. I've had horses that I didn't want anybody else to mess with or ride. They only had to suit me. BUT ever since I became a daddy, it's MY responsibility to have solid, forgiving, safe horses for my kids. Yes, I do make part of my living horseback, but for me, that's not the only reason I do things like this. I've seen too many horse wrecks that should have never happened. Horses just weren't conditioned to accept things humans (beginners) do. If I can see that a horse is a time bomb because they're resentful and defiant, it's my job to address that before a child or inexperienced person gets kicked, thrown, etc.

I'm not saying I whip or beat on horses. I don't. Most everyone I know is rougher on a horse than me cause I know how to get the job done without a fight, I definitely don't go out wanting to have a war with a horse. No more than people go to work in an office wanting to get in a fight with a co-worker, But I do condition em to be ok with scary movements, touches, sounds, and all that. And if I have to work with a pissy horse and I spank it for doing something dangerous and he retaliates, I will increase pressure until THE HORSE submits. That's not being mean, it's keeping a big athletic animal from hurting somebody. When the heat is on, you don't want a horse in your face fighting. Basically it's about teaching a horse to hold his composure, even when his "fight or flight" instinct tells him to act out. It's not about making a horse like a machine, just teaching them to conduct themselves like good lady and gentleman horses.
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    05-27-2012, 04:34 PM
  #17
Trained
Quote:
Originally Posted by AmazinCaucasian    
Sounds like she understands discipline, but resents it. This post isn't meant to argue, bsms, I like your posts. Agree with most of em. Just want to make people think

What I'm saying is that some horses need to develop more tolerance. They need to be more forgiving so that they're safer to be around. Would you let kids ride your horse? If so, are you constantly hollering instructions like "don't do that" or "she doesn't like that"...
She accepts some forms of discipline with no resentment. Others, she resents. If she feels she is being bullied, or forced into submission, she's likely to fight back. She isn't a bucker, but she can become quite agitated - and that is no fun to ride.

She is a "Please & Thank You" horse. Treat her with respect, and she'll give her best. Start cussing and demanding she obey or else, and you're going to get a fight. When that happens, she is no longer listening. She came up for sale because she was in a field with 2 large geldings and she wouldn't submit. They were 1500 lbs each, and she started at 900 and dropped to 750...but still refused to submit. I don't weigh 1500 lbs, and there aren't two of me. I had another Arabian mare like her. Lilly weighed about 750. She wasn't much for starting fights, but she would take on a horse twice her size if provoked hard enough. Some horses aren't inclined to accept "My way or else!" Not if they perceive it as being bullied.

However, my son has only ridden twice in his life, and both times were on Mia. And she behaved beautifully, although his riding was like someone on his first time. My oldest daughter has ridden Mia as a beginner, and had no trouble. I learned to ride on Mia. I had ridden a few times in my late teens, and then gone 30 years without getting on a horse. I learned to ride by riding Mia bitless...who probably hadn't been broken at all, but that is another story. Suffice it to say that 3.5 years later, the trainer I hired had to start at the very beginning.

Horses, like kids and dogs, respond well to discipline that is understood, timely and proportionate. But they get to determine what 'proportionate' means. I had a dog once that you could beat on with your fists for 5 minutes, and at the end he'd say, "I'm beginning to think you are upset about something..." Another dog I owned couldn't handle anything harsher than a stern glance. Both were excellent dogs, but that was in part because I treated them differently.

My son hated being sent to his room. My youngest daughter doesn't care: "You can't turn off the TV in my head". So as a parent, I needed to find punishments that THEY cared about, and thought were proportionate.

With Mia, if you "tried smacking her with a crop on the leg" (OP post), you'd have a scared and angry mare. Punch her in the ribs with your elbow, and she'll straighten out ASAP. Lots of people will turn a horse in tight circles or disengage her to convey the idea that XYZ wasn't right. Do that with Mia, and you'll have an agitated horse that is NOT listening. But back her up in a straight line, and she'll take it to heart.

Why? I don't know. Disengaging works well with Trooper. It apparently works well with a lot of horses. But it doesn't work with Mia - so why would I do something that doesn't work?

For the OP, her horse needs discipline, but she may need to experiment with what the horse understands as a fair and proportionate response. And the horse may need the lesson Saddlebag recommended. It was an important one with Mia. Mia was never a kicker, and she would let anyone pick her feet, but she would panic if something unexpected touched her hind legs. She needed to learn that her hind legs could be touched or moved anytime without it causing pain or trouble.
     
    05-28-2012, 08:39 AM
  #18
Weanling
Wow great info! I'm so glad I posted, I thought I wouldn't get anything back. Thank you for all the idea's and working on her terms. I know I can't "Love" my horse into good behaviour and that these minor things may very well slowly become overwhelming for me.

I'll try these out when the time comes and let you all know what works best for us.
     
    06-03-2012, 03:28 PM
  #19
Weanling
Update!: kicked out at me today, I guess instincts came in and I yelled "hey" or something.. She moved up so I quickly moved up with her to get out of the line of fire. And she did it again I made her back all the way down the barn and move to the side. She looked more scared than I have ever seen her. Anyway, that was weird she probably thought I was going to beat her. So went on and had a great ride outside she was amazing as usual. Back in the barn ... Same thing.... She was showing me signs, that's how I missed the first kick. Lucky for me I've been around horses for so long I usually know where all legs will end up before the horse does.

So, untacking she did a tail swish the muscle twitch exc and it was on her right side, same side as earlier before the ride. I noticed this getting worse since we had a massage theripist out, and I'm starting to think this may be a pain issues. There shouldn't be, teeth just done, semi custom saddle, constant care and look overs 2x a day, good turn out and proper warming up and cooling out... But since my horse isn't flat out kicking I'm kinda thinking she doesn't want to. ( if that makes sense)

So I will call the vet to check her out just to double check. But do any of you think that the massage theripist -could- have brought out something?
     
    06-03-2012, 03:45 PM
  #20
Trained
Agreed with this not being a gender issue. My gelding is much the same undersaddle, he does not gel well with punishment or corrections. He has a very dominant personality.

A good RMT will be able to pick up a lot. My RMT has done wonders for my horse's TMJ and keeps him working through increased collection with massage throughout his hindquarters. He adores her. Any RMT worth their salt is able to suggest veterinary, chiropractic or farriery work which needs to be addressed.

Anyways, the trick, as bsms has pointed out, is figuring out what is acceptable (to the horse) and not picking fights, all while advancing the training. The good thing (for me) about having a horse that is offended by the use of the whip is that when I am required not to show with it, it is good because I don't need it. However in the training it is essential so we have done some desensitizing to it. Because that's what it is, sensitivity, not bad behavior.
If you are willing to work on yourself and your handling techniques, by the time you "get through to" this mare, it will be you that has improved, not she, and you will be a better, more sensitive, handler for it.

Good luck!
And good to hear you've already had some response from the mare.
     

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