"Playing the Hero" -- when to 'stick with it' & when to realize it's time to move on. - Page 19
   

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"Playing the Hero" -- when to 'stick with it' & when to realize it's time to move on.

This is a discussion on "Playing the Hero" -- when to 'stick with it' & when to realize it's time to move on. within the Horse Training forums, part of the Training Horses category
  • Playing the hero
  • Stick horse hero

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    06-07-2012, 07:13 PM
  #181
Weanling
This was a good read...

I don't know if this has been said because I didn't go through EVERY page, but there is also a HUGE difference between passing a horse on to somebody who can help them better than you can and "giving up on them". It's kind of like the difference between adoption/professional help for a child and...desertion...? When parents can't handle their children, the best thing they can do for the child is seek professionals or families who can. Selling a horse is just admitting that the match isn't right and it can sometimes be the best thing that can happen for that horse. Remaining in a home that cannot care for them results in abuse and neglect, no matter which species you consider. However, I do see a very sad point for both horses and children where nobody can handle them and essentially they are in a holding pattern somewhere. With children they could end up in jail, or institutionalized in a long term lock down facility. Horses end up being put down, auctioned, or abused. (or if they are lucky, allowed to live out life in a pasture somewhere) It would be nice if every horse or every child could be turned around with some fast-working program to get them back on track and safe! That's not real life, though. Much of the issue goes back to "breeding responsibly". Do not produce more animals (or children!) than you can care for, and when you do produce them, CARE FOR THEM. Take the time to reward appropriate behavior and consequence inappropriate behavior. Prevention will do a whole lot more than treatment/training later on. How many aggressive children/horses have not experienced trauma themselves??? I'll tell you that in my experience, the answer is not many. If human breeding were selective as horse breeding (except according to temperament and responsibility, not looks) this would probably solve the problem for both species. I don't see that happening though, and in a lot of ways don't think it should...but it IS sad how humans can cause so many problems for the other species around us.
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    06-08-2012, 02:06 PM
  #182
Super Moderator
when to give up

Quote:
Originally Posted by Amlalriiee    
This was a good read...

That in my experience, the answer is not many. If human breeding were selective as horse breeding (except according to temperament and responsibility, not looks) this would probably solve the problem for both species. I don't see that happening though, and in a lot of ways don't think it should...but it IS sad how humans can cause so many problems for the other species around us.
You sound like a very wise & perseptive young woman, its a shame more aren't like it. You only have to look around to see the worlds resources running down and one war after another to realise that we are a pretty crap species. I often think that people should have to have training and approval to have children to prove that they are capable of raising for them and providing for them, all over the place there are generations of families that have never done a days work so have no role models, that's not the same as someone whos been unfortunate to lose their job and trying desperately to find a new one
At one time no one bought a pony (unless they were experts themselves) without the child taking riding lessons and spending time at a good yard learning how to care for it then if they did take it home they surrounded themselves with people who gave sound advice. Maybe there should be some law that says you have to prove yourself capable and not off the back of some Youtube videos either. People listen to a few then think they are experts, go and take on some Rescue case they know nothing about, some are even going to auctions to buy them because they're cheap and a few weeks later they are either asking the most basic things because its all gone horribly wrong and they can often get answers from all sorts of cranks who've never had anything more challenging than a horse that plods along the trails. There are some good trainers out there and I know there are some bad ones too and plenty that are just average which is fine if you have an average horse.
The yard I managed for many years used to take work experience people from a college, we once had a woman who was nearly finished and had found a seasonal job on a hunt yard but had never even galloped on an open space. She was an OK rider but I put her on a horse that had also done things like a bit of showjumping and low level dressage, my 14 year old son had ridden him as had my bosses niece of the same age and done really well in shows. The woman whittered on all the way around about how the horses diagonals were all wrong which to be honest I'd never noticed as he moved really well, when we got to the first open stretch, he was a very polite horse but I said to her 'he's fine but keep him under control, don't let him go away from you' Next thing he's off like a rocket, she's flapping her arms and screaming and then bails out. She was OK but I had in todays money a $40k horse galloping loose around an open area with a busy road to one side if he went that far. Luckily some girls from the yard were riding and he saw them and went to their horses. She told the college that the horse was dangerous and tried to put in a legal complaint. She went on to be trainer.
It is sad when you see what could be a wonderful horse in the wrong hands and ending up being branded a high risk, going round the auction merry go round until it finally ends up in a kill pen because some person thinks they are capable of doing anything with any horse based on no broad experience whatsoever
When I bought this last mare of mine the old dealer said to my husband 'you're wifes an experienced rider' and when he said how can you tell she's only just got on he said - 'because she gathered up the reins and held them herself rather than put all her trust in some young woman holding the horse for her, she's obviously been used to horses that don't always do what they are supposed to do.
I found that scarey.
     
    06-10-2012, 04:57 PM
  #183
Weanling
Thank you, jaydee. I work with emotionally disturbed high school kids so I see a lot of the damage that our species has done to ourselves. I agree that parenting should be taken much more seriously, as should horse ownership. Not everybody can handle it. Amazing that the woman went on to become a trainer...one of the most important pieces of this "when to give up" question is that people need to be honest about their abilities. Admit when you're wrong and when you can't handle something on your own...bite the bullet, swallow your pride, and get help....for the horse's sake. This woman needed a LOT more experience...not that she could NEVER be a trainer, but she was not anywhere near ready...especially if she is blaming the horse instead of having the courage to admit she was in the wrong.
     
    06-17-2012, 10:07 PM
  #184
Foal
Smile

Yeah, been there doing that. But we raised it, still there 9 years later, ha!
Well, he's workable, it's US and we know it. TIme constraints for a few years. He's doable, it's a time issue, but we would feel GUILTY sending him away!

Yeah, not so much hero, I"m all about safety and being realistic with expectations. But OTOH, we've brought him a long way despite some of our failings, which we actually fixed, can you believe that? We couldn't, but we did. Wow, that's such a good feeling.

Maybe stubborness, we refuse to give up.
Really not too much horse, he's actually really really calm and quiet when you work him consistently and when he feels safe...he's a pocket pony, he's just a scardy cat when mom is gone, lacks confidence in us because we weren't strong enough (or consistent enough for a few years) leaders...we've learned, now we are, and he IS coming around quickly.

Today, he was a good boy, separated from mom, it only took him 30 minutes to calm HIMSELF down, we don't force him, he tells us when he's ready (he'll walk to DH and be good) then we work with him, then he goes off a bit again, then we work him, then he says, oh never mind, it's more fun being with you, and well, that's our biggest issue with him really, the buddy sour thing, so no, I don't think we fit into all categories, but we do fit into the he could have been more useful for someone else for a few years...we didn't do him justice, but it's never too late to start.

We're all work-in-progress.
     
    07-06-2012, 10:49 PM
  #185
Foal
Thank you for posting this... my mom bought me a 16.2 emaciated grade gelding because she was mad at my dad... he had good ground manners..in the beginning..once he started gaining weight he got a little pushier.. and when summer hit and all the mares went into heat...it was like dealing with a stud. He was completely out of control and more than a few times almost ran me over. In the saddle he would prance and prance and would try to go through trees and bushs to get me off...

This was my first horse... and I hadn't been on a horse or around them for 10 YEARS....

I got rid of him, because I felt my well being was in jeopardy... and my mom locked herself in her bedroom for 8 days and refused to see or speak to me...

My mom bought her first horse 2 years ago, and has ridden him no more than 25 times.. he rears and bolts and she has no control over him.. but she refuses to sell him because sometimes, he 'follows her like a puppy and is just so cute!" I worry about her safety every dat but she doesn't want to hear my advice. :(
     
    07-09-2012, 10:20 AM
  #186
Super Moderator
knowing when to give up

Lady with the awkward 9 (?) year old - Have you actually really weaned this horse. I ask because you talk about him being clingy with his mother. Maybe it would be a good idea to break the cycle of his dependency on her by moving one of them away for a while and giving him an older reliable companion that he isn't so tied too

Other lady - The big problem with buying a thin horse out of sympathy is that so often they are not at all quiet when they are well and fit, it happens a lot in OTTB's that have ended up in bad hands, they are mostly not bred to be a first riding horse. We did have one that was a real aristocrat in his breeding and was quite lazy but still not what I'd have called quiet enough for a novice and he could be a 'b' to handle when the mood took him. The other concern with thin horses is that they often have some sort of terminal illness and end up costing you a fortune and a lot of heartbreak when you have to watch them die.
     
    07-09-2012, 11:28 AM
  #187
Foal
Just to clarify, I did not buy him out of sympathy, my mom did, and it was realy about sympathy, it was about cheapness and also only because she was angry at my dad and knew it'd piss him off. I was only 17 at the time. The other really sad thing about the situation was that a trainer helped her pick this horse out, a trainer that had VERY expensive Quarter Horses in his barn and did all the big shows. She was going to put him through training, but the trainer said he 'didn't need it'. I think it was more like it was below him to train him.
     
    07-12-2012, 09:39 AM
  #188
Foal
Thumbs up Thanks you

Informative post!
     
    08-19-2012, 05:02 AM
  #189
Foal
Its the same in this country,, many horses are traded from one buyer to the next because of behavoural problems...

I wish folks would be honest when selling a horse and say its got a few issues.....

Unfortunately, from a horses point of view, its doesnt know where it belongs, has no leader, doesnt have much in the way of a stable life, and often ends up defending itself,,,

In my life with horses I know, a horse thru its life will learn good and... not so good behavour...

For example, a horse may buck someone off and run back to its paddock, next time it may do the same.... or it may bolt, scaring the crap out of its rider, so in turn a rider starts only riding in an arena situation to maintain some control, but the horse gets bored with this and more bad behavour starts...

After a while a rider is too scared to ride this horse so its sold to some other unsuspecting buyer who hops on to get bucked off or horse bolts etc...

Again... unfortunately, horses retain good..... and not so good behavour all its life..... it can be trained in other directions but... will always retain behavour learnt..

My wife and I have taken in quite a few troubled horses over our life time that have become virtually worthless in money value..

We give these horses a new home, and give them a stable life, as they get to know us ...

Over time, we start a new horses retraining by leading it our with one of our school master style horses when we go trail riding and do this for quite a while..

This is done on purpose, so this new horse in its own time quietly begins to learn trust.... and also has its own time to get used to us giving quiet commands to it as well as the riding horse..

We often will then take this horse away on several week long treks often unsaddled and just lead...

After more time I will put a pack saddle on it and start packing it on treks.. often these horses will learn, that they have a life finally and in their own time begin to accept us as their leader..

Often a year has past before I will restart them off under saddle,, always with a stable horse they have come to know beside them... I do this as the new horse learns trust and gains cues off the other horse..

We have restarted quite a few horses this way....

On my website... the Appalussa Connor came to us as a dangerous horse some two and a half yrs ago... today... he a bombproof and school master horse that my wife barrel races and rides western pleasure and reining on..
Shae the Irish Draught, was another that had caused his previous owner grief, and we bought him a very green and scary ride,, today, my main trekking horse. Again bombproof and a school master type..

Horses, need to be loved and respected to excel...They love attention, and love to feel wanted and needed..

This horse training is only our way we have found that seems to work for us...

We have had no formal training but... over the yrs we listen to what a horse is trying to tell us...
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    08-19-2012, 09:58 AM
  #190
Super Moderator
honesty when selling

Quote:
Originally Posted by canterburyhorsetrailrider    
Its the same in this country,, many horses are traded from one buyer to the next because of behavoural problems...

I wish folks would be honest when selling a horse and say its got a few issues.....

Unfortunately, from a horses point of view, its doesnt know where it belongs, has no leader, doesnt have much in the way of a stable life, and often ends up defending itself,,,

In my life with horses I know, a horse thru its life will learn good and... not so good behavour...

For example, a horse may buck someone off and run back to its paddock, next time it may do the same.... or it may bolt, scaring the crap out of its rider, so in turn a rider starts only riding in an arena situation to maintain some control, but the horse gets bored with this and more bad behavour starts...

After a while a rider is too scared to ride this horse so its sold to some other unsuspecting buyer who hops on to get bucked off or horse bolts etc...

Again... unfortunately, horses retain good..... and not so good behavour all its life..... it can be trained in other directions but... will always retain behavour learnt..

My wife and I have taken in quite a few troubled horses over our life time that have become virtually worthless in money value..

We give these horses a new home, and give them a stable life, as they get to know us ...

Over time, we start a new horses retraining by leading it our with one of our school master style horses when we go trail riding and do this for quite a while..

This is done on purpose, so this new horse in its own time quietly begins to learn trust.... and also has its own time to get used to us giving quiet commands to it as well as the riding horse..

We often will then take this horse away on several week long treks often unsaddled and just lead...

After more time I will put a pack saddle on it and start packing it on treks.. often these horses will learn, that they have a life finally and in their own time begin to accept us as their leader..

Often a year has past before I will restart them off under saddle,, always with a stable horse they have come to know beside them... I do this as the new horse learns trust and gains cues off the other horse..

We have restarted quite a few horses this way....

On my website... the Appalussa Connor came to us as a dangerous horse some two and a half yrs ago... today... he a bombproof and school master horse that my wife barrel races and rides western pleasure and reining on..
Shae the Irish Draught, was another that had caused his previous owner grief, and we bought him a very green and scary ride,, today, my main trekking horse. Again bombproof and a school master type..

Horses, need to be loved and respected to excel...They love attention, and love to feel wanted and needed..

This horse training is only our way we have found that seems to work for us...

We have had no formal training but... over the yrs we listen to what a horse is trying to tell us...
I really liked your post because its such a common occurence especially happening a lot in horses being sold cheaply at auctions and ending up in rescue centres - often bought by people who are total amateurs and have never ridden them or seen them ridden. A lot of these horses would be fine with an experienced rider but dangerous for a novice
We have used the same technique of leading a difficult horse off a steady one many times and always with great success. I've seen horses that were virtually unrideable turned into great reliable mounts this way. I'd also rather take more time to rehabilitate a problem horse than try to bully it into submission with hard riding because when that horse is sold on it soon realises that its new owner is not so dominant or accomplished and slips back into its old ways
Thanks for your post - nice to know someone else has done well using the same method as us
     

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