please help. horse with attitude - Page 2 - The Horse Forum
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post #11 of 31 Old 11-09-2011, 08:28 AM
Green Broke
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: North Dakota, USA
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Gonna put my two cents in. I like Clinton Anderson because he's easy to understand and I can relate what he says. He explains how and why. I don't like Parelli because he's confusing. I don't get the left brain, right brain, introvert, extrovert thing. I don't care if my horse is left or right side or has an inny or outty or is it Audi. Hopefully no one on here likes Ryan Gingrich. I think he's an idiot. "Your horse is this way because he doesn't know the go cue, stop cue, or how to turn." At least that's what I get from him. He also thinks lunging is bad because the horse only learns how to go in a circle. Then there's John Lyonns. I really don't know much about his training.

I think you should try to find a local trainer. It would probably be cheaper and you can ask questions when you don't understand.

As for the big names. So who did I recommend? No one. You should check different ones out. Pick the one that you can understand and makes sense to you. You can probably find videos of each on the web. Each has their own terminology. I saw one that said he refused to be called a trainer. He said he was a teacher to the horse. When you take away the terminology, sales gimmicks and get to the basics, they're all pretty much the same. Even though I don't care for other trainers than CA, I will watch them because you can learn different ways to do the same thing.

To Northern - CA also does step by step in his program. As for him being a "maker", all trainers are makers. Even by classifying it as making the horse "interested". That's just a fancy way of saying it. If you can't make that horse do what you want or be "interested", the horse will just stand there or do what they want. Even when you're riding your horse, you are "making" the horse work. Do you really think the horse wants to do the work?

Back to the OP: you want to "click" with your horse. Do ground work with your horse. Get your horse to move in your control. This would be the same as she does to the other horses. As for her food aggression, when she's in the pasture she can behave however she wants. When she is with you she needs to behave. When I feed a horse, I make (yes I said make, I'm so bad) them turn their head away if tied or back away and stay away until I leave the food. If they turn towards me or move towards, I take the food away and make them turn or move away again.
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Last edited by usandpets; 11-09-2011 at 08:31 AM.
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post #12 of 31 Old 11-09-2011, 09:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Creampuff View Post

Otherwise... Are her ears this or this?? The difference is the first link is a tense (but not angry) horse. The second is obviously angry! As of late I've watched numerous handlers mistake the horse's body language... there's more to a horse's mood than back ears. I also look at the eyes, nostrils, and corners of the mouth (see the second link for more comparison).

And in closing... Just remember:
If you don't understand it, neither will your horse.

I wouldn't suggest trying any sort of training until you understand what it is, how it's done (properly), and what it's supposed to do.

Originally Posted by Golden Horse View Post
Horses respect a leader, not a friend, with constant leadership comes trust, and with trust comes a partnership, not an equal one, but a partnership never the less.

My suggestion work first with a real life trainer, one who can keep you safe and deal with the issues you have now, when working with horses there simply is no substituting for having someone there to translate for you as and when things happen. Later when you have the basic skills that you need that's when you can decide to follow different paths.
Originally Posted by usandpets
Back to the OP: you want to "click" with your horse. Do ground work with your horse. Get your horse to move in your control. This would be the same as she does to the other horses. As for her food aggression, when she's in the pasture she can behave however she wants. When she is with you she needs to behave.
I've highlighted all of the parts I definitely agree with, and what I think are the most important key concepts.

We had a mare like this at a therapeutic riding center. She had terrible ground manners in the wrong hands.
When I handled her, and I am not a professional or even that experienced, she was an angel. Why? Because I didn't stand for her games.

If she pinned her ears at me, she'd get one warning before I made her work work work. And after about a week of me handling her (this was the first time) she was the sweetest most amazing mare on ground or in saddle. And keep in mind I'm not an amazing rider or anything, she was just that tolerable.

I made her listen. I was the herd leader, and lead mare, and big cahoona. Not her. And I made sure she knew it.
I wasn't mean to her, I was stern.. like a parent telling their kids not to touch the hot stove. But I also praised her when she did well.

It's all about balance. Stop trying to bond with her.. try being more of a leader. She pins her ears, do something about it. If you pick up a hoof and she tries to slam it down, do something about it! If she's being an idiot in the crossties (idiot is used loosely.. it could mean biting or dancing or leaning or whatever she's doing... ) do something about it!

Pretty soon you will notice she is acting differently. Hopefully better than before you started. That's when you start the bonding process.

You can bribe a horse with as MANY cookies and treats as you want, it won't make them like you. Stepping up and being a leader will.

And do NOT baby this horse. Don't love on her until she has utmost respect for both you AND your wife. She may be adorable or whatever, but she's a very heavy, fast, strong, intelligent creature that WILL hurt you, especially if she's sweet on staying herd leader.
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post #13 of 31 Old 11-09-2011, 09:19 AM
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I do not know where this garbage comes from, but I will relate my personal experience as a trainer with more than 50 years of successful training and teaching behind me. I can no longer train much because of health reasons, but I still help novice riders find an appropriate horse for them or their families. I go with them to look at and try out various prospects.

I have personally run into so many PP disciples that had horses that were ill-tempered, constantly mad and absolutely miserable that I no longer even go look at one. When someone tells me that they have 'done Parelli' with their horse, I just pass completely. I have wasted too much time looking at horses that had been picked at and pecked on until they hated people on the ground. I never had any opinion about PP -- pro or con -- until I started running into their disciples and their horses. I have also had some of the 'disillusioned disciples' come to me with their horses because they were having so much trouble trying to ride their horses. All of these horses just stayed mad, no matter what you did. Their riders had just learned to get on the ground and 'pick' on them some more.

On the other hand, I have run into quite a few CA followers in the last few years and they were getting along with their horses pretty well. What most lacked was a real good sense of feel and timing and you just cannot learn that from any DVD -- you need a real live person.

Back to the OP. What most horses need that display aggressive behavior or threatening behavior is a real clear line drawn by a handler that is 100% consistent. You need respect (not fear) instilled in a horse and you get their devotion as a bonus.

I have 60 horses -- 1 stallion, mares and geldings.
They all love me.
They come every time they see me. [I am NOT the person that feeds them!]
They are easy to catch, easy to handle, stand for shoeing, stand tied as long as I need them tied (over-night if they go on long trail rides and camping trips), ride and handle pleasantly for me or anyone else that uses them.
They load in ANY trailer -- day or night -- without the handler having to do anything other than point them into the trailer. (You do not have to step in first for any of them.)
They all back out without their handler even getting in the trailer. (Some of these geldings were purchased and did not load and/or back out of a trailer when we got them.)
They never kick at or threaten other horses while they are haltered or saddled.
They have absolute respect for anyone that handles or rides them. ( This is no accident.)
They are taught from their first interaction with us that absolute obedience is what their place is in OUR herd.

As for the aggression in the pasture: I know of no cure for that. You either need to put up with it, sell the horse because of it or put her in a separate field.
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post #14 of 31 Old 11-09-2011, 02:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Golden Horse View Post
I actually don't dismiss ALL of the Parelli doctrine, but I do have very large reservations about novice people investing extraordinary amounts of money in hugely overpriced books, videos and training aids.
Right, good of you to say so, & I also don't dismiss ALL of CA's ways, e.g. his trailer loading video on a current thread is excellent.

As to the costliness of PNH, there are ways to bypass full retail, & the price of home study courses comes out way ahead of ongoing visits from a trainer/teacher! Also, they're offering a free month of Parelli Connect right now, I think it's still on, where you can learn a ton by watching all Savvy Club dvd's & read all magazine & other articles! I strongly recommend that to you! Sometimes the Levels/equipment are on ebay or forums like "It's About the Horse", as well. You can also skip shelling out $60-70 per Level now; just get unofficially assessed for as many levels as you want, & pick the level that you want official assessment on (+ your savvy string, certificate to hang on wall, etc).

To person who said everyone makes their horse obey, no horse wants to obey: this is not true. A horse can get interested in something, and then he starts to offer, beyond what the human is asking. This happens all of the time in PNH, & also consider the many horses in history who've loved their "jobs" - whether it be racing, cutting, jumping or whatever.
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post #15 of 31 Old 11-09-2011, 02:50 PM
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If all the mare is doing is pinning her ears I wouldn't do anything. Punishing her or rewarding her will have zero effect on the behaviour. I would just ignore it unless it was accompanied by some other behaviour. If she tries to bite then deal with the biting. If she wants to kick then deal with the kicking. You can't make a horse like you any more than you can force a person to like you.

I would also quit guarding the feed and keeping her away. Feed in more places than you have horses and then get out of the way and let them work it out.
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post #16 of 31 Old 11-09-2011, 05:11 PM
Green Broke
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My pony pins his ears a lot, we just call it his mad face. After going through food aggression issues and lack of respect issues with Hunter I can honestly say the best thing I ever did was hire a trainer. I had read tons of books and watched videos but you don't get the timing down right unless you learn it first hand. I had sent Hunter to the trainer originally but after I got him back she continued to come to my barn quite frequently and show me how to handle certain situations and it gave me the confidence to discipline or whatever. I was actually quite afraid of Hunter for a long time and he knew it and would walk all over me. We know have a pretty good relationship and now he actually lives at the trainers so he doesn't get away with much. It is great cus I am contantly learning from her.
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post #17 of 31 Old 11-09-2011, 07:03 PM
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How about some feedback from the OP?
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post #18 of 31 Old 11-09-2011, 07:36 PM
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I do some PP, but really find CA easiest to understand personally. However-I would reiterate that there is NOTHING to replace an actual trainer. NOTHING. An NH base is really helpful. Really it is, and PP is fine as long as you have the rest of your life to get results. JMHO. I am not getting younger, neither is my horse, and frankly-after a year and a half of NH for the most part- personally, I have had enough. TIme for a more 'traditional trainer.' I really don't care if my horse agrees with everything he is asked. I just want some one who will see that he is responsive and does it. He will never lose his base in PP and CA, nor am I sorry I did it, but the time has come. Watch videos if you want.. and if you are in no hurry. I am NOT saying that the horse should be abused in any way, or asked to do something they are not fully capable of. I am just tired of "asking" and wondering if he "likes it". All of us don't have to love our jobs. He has 23 hours out of the day to be a horse. I ask for 1, maybe 2. TOugh life.

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post #19 of 31 Old 11-09-2011, 08:19 PM
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Originally Posted by franknbeans View Post
I am NOT saying that the horse should be abused in any way, or asked to do something they are not fully capable of. I am just tired of "asking" and wondering if he "likes it". All of us don't have to love our jobs. He has 23 hours out of the day to be a horse. I ask for 1, maybe 2. TOugh life.

Yeah, well said
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post #20 of 31 Old 11-09-2011, 08:21 PM
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What can the poor OP say, with all of the disagreement? LOL! OP is a novice & thus can't decipher who's giving correct advice on this board!

One more bit of advice that by its simplicity I hope OP will see the sense of: Horsemanship is Love, Language, & Leadership, in equal doses. The horse must know you care, the horse must see that you "speak horse" with your understanding of his prey animal psychology (you don't act like a predator toward him, you act instead like another, more alpha horse would, & you use the universal language with him, which is body language) & you are always a fit leader for him, meaning you take care of his needs for safety, comfort, play, & food, so your ideas are always better than his ideas, for his wellbeing. Yes, that's a lot to ask of a human, but that's what it takes. That is your learning curve if you want to be a horseman, & it takes time.

AND, if, before you gain the savvy for this horse, you hire a "trainer" who doesn't have the LL&L going, but is forcing/making/scaring etc. your horse, I know you can see clearly what your horse's response is to the "trainer". A child can see a horse's response, so I know you can, too. "Trainers" are often "professional predators", as Pat says. You must see what you've got in any "trainer".

Again, Good luck!
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