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please help. horse with attitude

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        11-09-2011, 08:29 PM
      #21
    Trained
    Ummmm like PP isn't a "trainer"?

    As far as the controversy-you started the discussion with your very first post telling the OP that PP is the be all end all....Sorry, but the OP deserves to know that there is more to life. PP is "fluff", IMO. Yeah-it is nice, fun to do sometimes, and just one more aspect, but not "necessary". And I am one who has done it, so am NOT speaking without experience with it. I find NH most helpful for ground manner type stuff, I guess. Manners, loading, etc. But riding-not so much.
    smrobs and Hunter65 like this.
         
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        11-09-2011, 08:34 PM
      #22
    Showing
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Northern    
    I know you can see clearly what your horse's response is to the "trainer". A child can see a horse's response, so I know you can, too
    Small problem with this though. I could travel to Uganda and tell that the people were talking...but knowing that they were talking wouldn't help me understand what the heck they were saying.
         
        11-09-2011, 08:48 PM
      #23
    Foal
    Sorry I havent posted quicker but I have been swamped.lol. I really appreciate all the feed back. Me and my wife have been talking about gettin a local trainer out to help show us how to deal with her.we have had horses but never one like her with the attitude.i agree with there is nothin like hands on trainin.REALLY THANK YOU EVERYONE!
         
        11-09-2011, 09:08 PM
      #24
    Trained
    Good luck and stay safe! Let us know how it goes!
         
        11-09-2011, 09:45 PM
      #25
    Super Moderator
    Actually, I have an entirely different take on what it takes to have a horse that enjoys his job and enjoys obeying a fair and competent trainer / rider / leader.

    I think most horses crave structure and knowing exactly where they stand in the 'pecking order'. I have observed horse behavior for 55 years and have taught them what I wanted them to know for 50 of it. I have found that the horses that have been taught a very solid structure for their behavior are the 'happiest', least stressed horses I have been around. They become so willing, their ears are up and alert, they listen and patiently wait for each directive. They are not unsettled or mad or worried or defiant about anything. They just go on doing what is asked of them for years.

    They are not 'beaten down' or droopy or unhappy. They nicker every time they see their human herd leader and come to depend totally on their 'people'. When I step out in the pasture with an armload of halters, it is more like each horse is saying "Take me!" "No! Take Me!" they each patiently wait for their turn at getting a halter on. I frequently lead 6 or 7 geldings out of the pasture together. Sometime when I am in a hurry, I lead 2 out the window of the chore truck and husband leads 5 or 6 more off the back of the truck -- usually at a good trot. Don't anyone tell me they would rather have it any other way. Just like a foal does not question where its mother is going but just follows because its dam is its leader, a well trained horse does anything its leader / person wants it to do and does it happily. It not only likes the structure of knowing who its leader is, it requires such a relationship to be happy and well-adjusted. It is just the way horses are. All of my years of observing feral herds, ranch herds numbering in the dozens, family groups, stallion led herds and mare or gelding led herds. [They really differ little except during the breeding season when the stallions are functioning as stallions.] Oddly enough, you can turn a group of stallions in together in the fall when the breeding herds are brought in on large ranches and even a herd of stallions behaves just like any other structured herd.

    If you want to see an 'unhappy herd' where everything and everyone is upset and unsettled, just scramble up the make-up of an established herd and switch horses around. I did it this year when the ponds and creek started going dry. I had horses run over fences, I had horses kicked and bitten all over and had one that we are still doctoring and may be crippled. They had a very settled structured herd and absolutely no problems. All were happy with their place in their herd from the most dominant down to the ones at the bottom of the pecking order. Moving them around completely destroyed their happy settled herd life.

    Horses are terribly unsettled and unhappy when they do not know where they stand in a herd -- be it a horse herd or their human herd. They are mean and fight for the best place they can get into in that pecking order. Once it is settled, they accept their place and are very happy. Oddly enough, those at the very bottom of the pecking order are the happiest. Those jockeying for a better position near the top are the most unsettled.

    I have found that when horses are at the very bottom of your pecking order with them, they are also happiest. They never show resistance or aggression. They are more like the yearling or foal that 'clacks' their mouth to tell you that they are not challenging you. They want you to know that they look up to you as their leader. They would not even think of being pushy or biting or kicking.

    This is the kind of relationship I have with every horse I handle. They are happy letting me be the leader. They do not have an opinion that I want to know about.

    When I see people struggling with a pushy horse, I see a herd that has not established the pecking order. I see horses that are mad and aggressive trying to convince their person that they are the herd leader. Don't try to tell me that a horse that is trying to become the herd leader is a happy horse. Don't try to tell me that a horse that a person is listening to is happier than a horse that KNOWS its person calls all of the shots. I have watched too many horse herds and people / horse herds to know that that is just not how a herd animal thinks. When they have accepted a person as the herd leader, they are happiest. If they are pushy, if they are laying their ears back at a person, if they nip or kick at a person, if they defiantly refuse to lead or back up or move over, they ARE NOT happy in their place. They are fighting for the leadership role and are pretty unhappy and miserable acting out. Like the unhappy spoiled, tantrum throwing brat that defies his/her parents, the 'spoiled' defiant horse is miserable. I have seen it over and over and no one is every going to convince me that a horse is happier that has a bossy leader one minute and one that wants the horse's input the next. Horses want structure and to know where they stand and they want that place to be the same every minute of every day.

    Congratulations if you waded through all of this!

    Cheri
         
        11-09-2011, 09:59 PM
      #26
    Trained
    I can't say I waded through it. I read it quite eagerly and I agree 100%. I don't want to beg my horse to do what I want. I ask and expect it done. It doesn't take long before it gets done a little before I get done asking sometimes. If a person asks but doesn't expect it to be done then the horse will know and you'll have to ask again.
         
        11-09-2011, 10:00 PM
      #27
    Showing
    If she pins her ears if you mess with her in the pasture she's likely telling others to stay away. If you're out of the pasture, then she may need a sharp word.
         
        11-09-2011, 10:32 PM
      #28
    Super Moderator
    Kevin -- Yes indeed! If you have to argue with a horse, you have not convinced him that you are the leader and he is still trying for your spot at the top.

    It all goes back to my old saying -- "Be fair. Do not ask any horse to do anything that he is not ready and able to do. Then, don't accept anything less than full compliance."

    Saddlebag -- I don't allow a horse to be bossy with other horses when I am in the pasture with them. That is how people get run over by a lower horse when a dominant horse runs them over you.

    You can tell by their body language if they are laying their ears back at you or at another horse. They are pretty plain about who it is directed at.

    If a horse lays its ears back when you are there, you will not be able to lead a big group of them. If a person is truly the leader of the whole herd, then they ALL become subordinate when that person is there. They will all keep their ears up and be listening and watching.

    If I am out in the pasture and a horse puts its ears back at another horse, I can go "Ah!" and look at them and the ears come up instantly. I can 'speak' to them on their level just like they 'speak' to each other. Body language is subtle but they read it VERY well if they have been well taught.
         
        11-10-2011, 12:23 AM
      #29
    Trained
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Cherie    

    It all goes back to my old saying -- "Be fair. Do not ask any horse to do anything that he is not ready and able to do. Then, don't accept anything less than full compliance."

    .
    I so agree with this, I use it as a sanity check when I'm working with horses, or dogs or even managing people, "Is this request reasonable, and has the person/animal got the skills to carry it out"

    If the answer to both is yes, then I simply expect that it will be done, if not then I have to amend my request, and help said person/animal gain the skill it understanding that they need to carry out the task in future.

    And yes I request, in the clearest most appropriate way for the situation, if a request doesn't work the I will, metaphorically speaking, slap them upsides the head with a clue by four, until they get it...being as it was a reasonable request in the first place
         
        11-10-2011, 12:40 AM
      #30
    Trained
    Absolutely FANTASTIC post Cheri, I could not agree more. And like Kevin, I did not wade through, but rather read with keen interest.
         

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