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Pony kicking at sidewalker

3K views 19 replies 15 participants last post by  SlideStop 
#1 ·
Hi there everyone. I have a bit of a dilemma that a long internet search could not answer. I work for a place that offers pony rides to children. There's always two people per pony, one to lead and one to help the kid mount and to hold the kid while the horse is walked around a track.

The problem: We have one mare that finds this work boring and will refuse to walk or will stop at the same part of the track with the kid on her and start kicking at the sidewalker. She's learned now that this will get the kid off of her if she puts up enough of a fight. This was due to staff becoming scared and putting her away instead of working her through (Or parents yelling to get their child off the demon pony). This continued for a while with the sidewalker just dodging the kicks while the walker tried to get her to continue.

However now she's taken to kicking while at the mounting block, presumably at the sidewalker, but the child is now inadvertently put in harms way when she does this. If we do get the child on her when she's in that state of refusal, she will violently back her butt up into the perimeter fence. Any of the forms of correction we use on her are met with resistance. Being yelled at, or tugged sharply, or tapped, she will still refuse. She hates to be bullied into obeying.

A little history: She is a Palomino mare about 23 years old. We got her about two years ago when I first started working for this facility. The only history I know of her is that she was in a trailer accident before we got her and she used to be used for breeding/riding. She's always had a problem since day one with us, but we've slowly worked through some of them (kicking while picking hooves, kicking while putting a saddle on). On the track she would rarely kick at first, but exhibited that same stalling out behavior at the same part of the track. At the time a light pat on the butt got her to continue the ride. At the time we also had a more expirenced person to work with her, but she has since left. When we first introduced her to our herd, she quickly took the lead. A year ago we acquired an Arabian mare who usurped her and dropped her to the bottom of the herd. Outside of having to do work, she leads very nicely. Although she can be pushy and sometimes bitey. We've had our vet look at her multiple times for pain or back issues, but the result is always negative.

Most of the people we have working on the rides do not have previous horse experience. Even I have learned everything I know about horses in the two years I have been working here. Usually this is not an issue. We have three geldings and the Arabian mare who behave very well for newbies to work with them. Our supervisors are well aware of this pony's issues, but we are simply told to continue working with her. Hiring an experienced trainer is not an option due to money, even though that's the option I would prefer. So I have taken to researching everything I can on training techniques, watching videos, and the like. I'm basically taking this mare back to stage one to build her back up.

Solution?: I've watched many videos on pressure and release training methods. As in, put pressure on the horse until you get the result then release. I put her on the track and began walking her around with no sidewalker and no child. She put up some resistance of course, so I asked her twice to do what I asked, then made her do tight turns while going
after her butt with the lead rope (no hitting) or backing up until we peacefully walked down the track with no pressure. Basically, "I will make you do more work and make you feel uncomfortable until you do the easier thing I asked." One of the sidewalkers walked by too closely while I was working with her and the pony kicked out. I quickly turned her in circles, then released and we walked quietly down the track with no other words. When I ask her to stop, if she continues too far past me, I ask her to back up by placing my arm against her nose and pushing slightly for a step or two. When I ask her to stop at the mounting block I hold the rope out in front of her and wiggle it slightly. During the tight circles, I hold out the rope and point in the direction while I spin the rope behind her if she doesn't move right away. I'm trying to be as consistence as possible.

The next step I wanted to do was try with a sidewalker. I can do these circle corrections when she kicks again. After she relaxes with the walker, I wanted to then have the walker place a light sandbag on her. Again I can correct easily. I figure if she can peacefully walk with a sandbag, she will walk with a child.

So finally the question: Am I going about this the right way? Is this a feasible training solution? Are there any other better ways? Thanks for the help and sorry for the length! With only two years under my belt working alongside with easy ponies, I'm definitely no expert. Any advice is appreciated, especially if I have analyzed anything incorrectly. Thank you again!
 
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#2 ·
1. Why would you put a horse with known issues in a child's pony riding business.
?

2. What are you doing continuing using this horse around children with these known issues.?

Sorry, this just doesn't make cense to me.

I would find a new job before someone gets hurt if these people are going to continue to pur the horse and children in this situation.
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#3 ·
Well with no money for a trainer and a pony that's being too dangerous for her job guess you tell, whoever you need to tell that you aren't working with that pony anymore because it might hurt someone.
Gonna have fun w/ money when someones kid gets hurt.

Horse is probably sick of annoying little children, I don't blame it one bit.
 
#4 ·
Honestly I completely agree about not using her anymore, but my supervisors are so hard headed they won't see the issue until someone gets hurt. Thank you for the input. I'll try to get through to them again about this horse needing a better home away from stupid kids. Not all horses can tolerate this sort of work.
 
#6 ·
Get the supervisor to be the target of the kicks and Im pretty sure theyll realise the problem... A kicked child is way too much paperwork for most bosses to risk putting themselves through haha

Where my friend works they send the horses on 'hoilday' for a month or so to let the horse freshen up and get the crankiness out. Perhaps the old gal wants a break!
 
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#7 ·
Absolutely talk to that boss. I run a pony therapy program and have a string of small horses and ponies- about 9 to be exact- and I would NEVER EVER put up with this kind of behavior, much less allow the animal to work with the children unless it is anything but mellow, submissive, and obedient. Take her out of the program atleast for a few weeks if you guys are so set on keeping her- and do excessive ground work with her. Perhaps have someone who knows how to ride well ride her, and do all of the things that a normal kid would do like scream 'YEEHAW' and flap around like an idiot. If you want her to have this job you have to teach her to ignore everything but the person at the end of her leadline, including the sidewalker. My ponies could have someone shoot a gun past their ears and still stand stock still for a child to mount. Its just how things have to be.

When she tries to kick, stop and make her back up. FAST. Make yourself look big and scary. You have about three seconds to convince her that you're going to KILL HER. As soon as she submits, continue on. Rinse, wash, repeat. She'll eventually get it. Making a horse move is key.
 
#8 ·
When a boarders mare started doing this I took a dressage whip, since it's shorter than a lunge whip, and rubbed it up and down her kicking leg. By the time a horse is 23 it's likely received more than one good smack so she knows what the whip could do. As the child is mounting have the sidewalker rub the kicking leg with the whip and see if this doesn't curb the action. She may have to carry the whip for a while.
 
#9 ·
Wow, is this some backyard pony ride facility? Gosh, no sane person would put an innocent child on a kicking horse!

Here's the thing, this pony does not like her job. She is 23 years old. Maybe she is in pain? Anyone ever think of that? She doesn't want to go round and round in circles. Retire the poor animal and find a replacement.
 
#10 ·
I agree, time to put her out to live her days and get the kids off her back.
If the bosses don't think its an issue, wait until she kicks a small child in the head, then they will be screaming at you because you let it go on.
Just quit using her. Find a replacement, there are hundreds of good older gentle horses to use with kids.
 
#11 ·
I agree that the pony is unsuitable for the job.

Ponies are thinkers, more so than horses. She has learned that she can get away with such a mundane boring job and will continue to do so. If you think she will be fooled by a sandbag then think again. she will soon take advantage of whoever is leading her because they do not know what they are doing.

As for pain issues - it could well be, but more likely it is just cunning.

All these ponies would be happier in their work if they were taken out for a good happy ride a couple of times a week ridden by kids that can ride.

As for stopping her I would have a rider on her - one that can ride. They would sit and act like a novice and when she kicked at the side walker she would get a darn good wallop from both the side leader and the rider.

Many will not like this. I do not care kicking is dangerous and unless she gets a short sharp lesson she will continue to do it.
 
#12 · (Edited)
OwnedByAlli- Haha, that's my thinking. I would love to have my boss sidewalk this pony for five minutes. They would change their minds very quickly. It's a lawsuit waiting to happen.

Endiko- Thank you. Our three other geldings and the other mare are all mellow as can be. It's just this gal. If I cannot convince my bosses to give this mare a better home with a more experienced rider (or even someone who just wants a pasture pet), then I will definitely ask to at least keep her away from rides for a while until/if she comes around. We do have an experienced rider we can use on her, and I can do the backing up. It's just how much do I really want to push her to do something she hates to do?

Saddlebag- Thank you, I will try that. I don't know much of her history, but it may work.

CLaPorte- Thank you. Funnily enough it's not, it's a pretty popular attraction around this area. The farrier has told us before that it could be that she has a disk that has slipped out of place. Our vet is convinced that there's nothing physically wrong. I think it is entirely possible that it's a hidden pain issue.

Foxhunter- Thank you. I will be first to admit that we do not have the skill to work with this pony. We do have an experienced rider that works here that's small enough to ride. If nothing comes of talking with my bosses, then we will try it. But like I said to Endiko, how much do I really want to push the pony to do something she hates?

Thank you again for all the feedback. I'll definitely use this advice when I talk with my bosses. If it eases anyone's mind, last week I've been telling the staff to not put kids on her anymore and to just quietly lead her around to appease the bosses. So at least recently no other kids have been put in harms way.
 
#13 ·
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Foxhunter- Thank you. I will be first to admit that we do not have the skill to work with this pony. We do have an experienced rider that works here that's small enough to ride. If nothing comes of talking with my bosses, then we will try it. But like I said to Endiko, how much do I really want to push the pony to do something she hates?

As I previously said, ponies are intelligent and will often be as naughty as can be just because they can get away with it. Many the pony I have had that was certainly not child safe just because it had got away with misbehaving and taken it a step or three further.
Everyone of these ponies came right with very firm handling, a larger rider who could sort them out (I am 5'9" and weighed about 140 - 145) and thought nothing of getting on an 11.2 pony that was overstepping the mark with a small child riser. It never did any of them harm - they learned in one, or at the most two lessons that if they messed around with me there then they would have to work hard to redeem themselves.

What would help with all the ponies is if they could be taken for a 'jolly' with children that can ride, play gymkhana games with them, give them a good canter, pop a few poles, anything to break the monotony.
 
#14 ·
Get the children off the pony.

Either retire the pony or fix the problem and let the pony have some fun.

When the pony goes to kick out give the pony one good whack with a dressage whip on the bum. Kickin is not acceptable. Both you and the sidewalker need a dressage whip.

When the pony is no longer thinking about kicking out. Put someone on that can ride and repeat. Once the pony is behaving consistently well line up someone to give the pony some fun. Take it on a hack, pop over some jumps, take it for a canter or even gallop. Not just once let her have some fun!

Kickers have no place near children! Only once you've had no aggressive behavior consistently for AT LEAST 2 weeks then look at bringing her back into the program at first with NO rider, then more capable riders.
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#15 ·
I helped run a therapeutic riding program for 3 years. The horses DO get sour sometimes. The BEST mare that we had one day decided she was not going to do this anymore, and we retired her to be a trail horse. It is not safe at all to ask a horse to do something like that when they have a bad attitude. They are not stupid, they KNOW it is harder to discipline them when they have a child on their back. They figure it out quick.

I did have one mare that would occasionally get p*ssy with me. She never acted out though. When she would do this, I would saddle her up after the session and trail ride her for a few hours. She LOVED trail rides and this would put her back into "work" mode. Kept her mind fresh so to speak. She was an Arabian, one of the smartest horses I've ever met, and she knew she could get away with more when she had a disabled kid on her back. But the more she got out and blew off some steam, the better she was when she was working as a therapy horse.

So with this one, either find a way for this horse to be freshened, or retire her. It is part of the business of therapeutic riding to have horses go in and out, and it is up to us as responsible horseman to listen to the horses, let them tell us when they are needing retirement, and then find them proper homes, and find a horse better suited for the job. We now have 2 VERY steady horses that love their job (and it shows), and 2 more that are in training still. The ones that love the job are out there, but it takes some time to find them. It should be expected though in this kind of business.
 
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#16 ·
Ponies are smart. If it can be thought up the pony will think it up long before the horse. I suspect your pony is trying to get out of being ridden. Resolve the cow-kicking and she may think up another after a while. It might be biting at the handler when cinching up. If she resorts to that just have the handler flap an elbow. Horses dont like to run in to elbows. Or show her the whip and she'll likely change her mind about that little trick.
 
#18 ·
Thank you for all the advice everyone. I've read every post. It seems the overall consensus is to give this mare a break from this very boring and annoying work (or just retire her). I like this advice best out of all, but everyone's was very very helpful and I appreciate the time you all took to reply. Everyone is very right that this pony is smart and needs more mental stimulation.

Today we had another talk with the supervisor about the mare's behavior. We told her about letting an experienced rider have some fun on her, about how the pony is bored out of her mind and needs a break. Our opinions were taken negatively, but we will keep on pushing and pushing until she's sick of hearing about this horse and does something. Our farrier is also on board to try and talk some sense into her.

Thank you again. I'll post an update should anything change in case anyone is interested.
 
#19 ·
As others have said this could become an issue that comes back on you. I was in a similar situation and it took me to long to quit.

As a handler, as long as you are on their books, you can refuse to handle that particular horse. It is dangerous because not only can a parent sue the company but sue you personally saying it is something you did that caused it, especially if the parent is looking for quick cash. I would tell your boss that they can lead the mare for a couple of days. Also if the mare kicks you or bites hard enough to draw blood you have a full right to sue them. Tell them that if they continue to have you work with this pony and something happens that you will take whatever legal action is necessary. Also have as many people as possible witness you telling your boss this so that if they do end up going to court by a parent or another employee or even yourself that you have multiple witnesses to state that they knew before hand that the mare was acting out.
 
#20 ·
You keep saying supervisor.. can you go above their head? I would get together with all your coworkers and get EVERYONE on board about not handling the pony and have them complain about her behavior too! This way you don't look like an insubordinate employee and it will make a clear statement.

Also, not sure just how ethical this would be but why don't you have someone call your supervisor or company and complain about the animal. Have them say they are a horse person and they cannot believe what a danger, liability, etc, etc, this pony is.
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