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Problems lounging (Horse kicks at my head)

22K views 65 replies 19 participants last post by  Northern 
#1 ·
I have a three year old paint gelding. He was gelded as a yearling, and as a stallion he was a complete gentleman. He was extremely mild mannered. About a week after he was gelded, on our daily walks around the barn to help him stretch, he started acting up. He would spook at nothing and get really testy. My vet told me not to worry, because all newly gelded horses go through a bit of a hormone rage for up to two months after they're gelded. Well my horse never really grew out of that.

His ground manners are superb, except for the farrier, but that's a story for another day. He is sweet and gentle all other times. He's even great around small animals, including my barn cats, chickens, and MinPins.

The problem is, as soon as you get him on the lunge line and try to get him moving, he kicks at your head. I've even had him do this for a professional trainer. It's not even him kicking just to kick. He turns his butt at you and will back up in your direction. He's even chased me once or twice. He managed to get me in the chin once. It dislocated both sides of my jaw and split my lip.

To be perfectly honest, I'm a bit afraid of him now. Even just in his pasture at liberty, I don't trust him. I feel like I'm always making up excuses not to be with him or handle him. Now don't get me wrong, I love him very much, and he's definitely a loved member of this family.

I guess what I'd like to know is
A: Is there a way to keep him from kicking out, or any excersizes I can try to relax him?
B: What can I do to build my trust back up in him?
C: (this seems like such a newb question, but) can I progress in his training without lunging him?
 
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#2 ·
Unfortunatly, it sounds like you may be in over your head on this one. Whatever the reason for his naughty behavior, it seems like you may have inadvertently reinforced it because you are nervous around him and let him get the upper hand. Right now you are not a leader, he is and I think it may take someone else to get him back under control to where you may be able to work with him.

Does he only do it on the lunge? Can you walk him and handle him in a halter okay?
 
#3 ·
He only does it while lunging. I can lead him, tie him, pick up his feet. He's bomb proof. I have desensitized him to the whip, balloons, gunfire, dogs, cars, car horns, everything I can think of. He pivots well, both on the haunches and the forequarters in both directions.

I do understand what you're saying, but there is no way I am feeding his habit on this. I haven't lunged him in months. He has been working with three professional trainers. The first one dropped him because she got kicked. The second one I dropped because he refused to try working with him (heard stories from the first trainer), and he does the same thing with the trainer I have now.
 
#66 ·
I do understand what you're saying, but there is no way I am feeding his habit on this. I haven't lunged him in months. He has been working with three professional trainers. The first one dropped him because she got kicked. The second one I dropped because he refused to try working with him (heard stories from the first trainer), and he does the same thing with the trainer I have now.
Right, so I stand by my suggestion to find the trainer who'll fix it & show Infinity how to fix it.
 
#4 ·
What do you do when he starts these behaviors?

It is possible to continue working without lunging (maybe he has gotten sour on it?) but the fact that he would act out in such an extreme way would cause my great concern especially if you've already lost your confidence around him.
 
#5 ·
When he first started doing it, I was pretty much in the mindset of "no big deal, he spooked, keep him moving" and he worked through it pretty quickly. Then he got me in the face. I think that's what got him to do it consistantly. I actually lost consciousness for a few minutes and had to be rushed to the ER. So pretty much, he was free to run around the round pen as he pleased. I heard that somebody brought him in for me, but because of what happened and the fact that they didn't know him they used a stud chain and a twitch on him. Ever since then (and since then only other people have lunged him) he immediately starts with this kicking. Before that incident it would happen at about the five minute mark. Now it's the first thing he does.
 
#7 ·
Sarahver just posted a great description about how to behave when a horse displays aggressive behavior in the thread under this section by Princecharlie. I will probably repeat some of the information here.
Even softies like me who work with horses all the time understand there is a time when you have to be aggressive enough that your horse believes you are going to kill him. This has to be done WITHOUT anger or spite (he is a horse and does not fully understand that when he kicks you that it might kill you). But there are a few behaviors from horses that should be met with zero tolerance. Kicking at you, biting you, stomping on you, etc. When these behaviors are directed intentionally at you, you must show extreme aggression toward the horse. This means loud noises, smacks, snapping with the whip, hitting with rope, anything that will not actually injure your horse but will scare him into thinking you could kill him if you wanted to.
Now if I were training your horse, I have to think that rule #1 while lunging is that the hind end never comes toward me. I would also feel that I had two safety zones: one where I was too close for him to kick me, and one where I was too far away. I would start out snubbed up to his nose, leading him. I would turn his nose into me and his hind end out of the circle. Then I would ask him to walk forward following me as I backed away. I would feed him a couple of inches of rope, move slightly toward a more normal lunging position, and if the hind end ever started toward me I would pull the head back in to me and use the lunge whip to get his hind end back out. I would work on getting a little farther away from his nose, but if he ever turned that butt or threatened me you would hear me yelling, snapping the lunge whip and whacking him on the butt with the whip. I would work up to a distance where I felt he could almost reach me with his kickers if he tried (but was still walking nicely with his butt angled out just a bit), and then I would scoot out to a distance where I knew he couldn't reach me. From this safe distance I would do the same thing: severely punish the hind end turning toward me, rewarding a gentle walk on the line. If he decided to back toward me, I would pull that head around to face me, using the leverage of the lunge line, or even running around to face his head and then regaining control. If he decided to charge me, I would first swing the lunge line back and forth hard so the buckle smacked him in the face, and if that didn't stop him I would have my arms up waving and smack him hard on the face with the lunge whip. He's only 3 and has not had problems with aggressiveness, so it seems to me that he should be easy to bluff and not very practiced at aggressive behavior. Even so, if you are afraid of him you need to find a real trainer (or just an experienced horse person) who can work on retraining him how to lunge.
You can ride and be around horses without lunging them. I'm amazed sometimes at how many horses people are riding around daily don't know how to lunge. BUT if your horse knows he can show aggressive behavior and have you flinch away from him, he is smart enough to know that he can do this when he is not lunging as well.
Be careful also that you make sure when he is not displaying any bad behavior that you let him go back to lunging normally. If your cues get confusing he may think he can turn to face you and avoid lunging. I would practice lunging at the walk nicely for at least several days before going any faster. If I found I couldn't control his head with a halter, I would lunge with a bit and bridle on.
OK, just a few suggestions in case you wanted some ideas for working with the horse yourself.
 
#8 ·
Thanks Gottatrot!

Only thing I would add here is get a whip. A big one. And use it!

Don't hit him of course but make sure you can crack it really well and get after him as soon as he begins to show signs of aggression, really make a big deal of it. That type of behaviour is NOT acceptable.
 
#9 ·
What your horse has learned is very unacceptable behavior brought on most likely, because he has "won the battle by using the weapon that is available to him namely his hind feet. The experience with having been twitched and a nose chain used did not help matters at all.

What you need to do, if it's worth the risk involved, is "arm yourself" with a "weapon" since he has already used his hind feet as such. You'll need a lunge whip or stock whip at least 4 foot long. When the horse swings his hind end toward you give him one welt on the rump. Do the same thing when he comes at you in the "charging mode", but go for the nose with the whip. Only until he backs down and you have "won" in his book. You'll more than likely will have to carry the lunge whip or stock whip anytime your around him just in case he reverts back to using his "weapons".

If you stop lunging him all together that is only avoiding the problem not curing/fixing it.
 
#10 ·
Just read your response Candyandy and I wanted to add: If he actually kicks at you then yes, I would sure as hell be swatting him on the butt.

Preferably you want to have the right timing so that you can get after him by cracking the whip before he actually kicks out. He'll tell you what he is about to do with his body language. As soon as he starts showing signs of dominance/defiance crack that whip and drive him to the outside of the round pen before he even has a chance to raise a leg.
 
#11 ·
C: (this seems like such a newb question, but) can I progress in his training without lunging him?
Sorry to double post but I just noticed this. The answer is yes, you can get him go progress in his training without lungeing him.

However you will not progress in YOUR training which is equally important. After being kicked in the head it is understandable that you are fearful. If you really can't face lungeing him yet, find a trainer that can. Watch them successfully lungeing him so that you can see that it is possible. Then do it yourself.

This is something that you need to address as much for yourself as for your horse.
:wink:
 
#14 ·
Ok, I don't want to put a scare into anyone but as training doesn't seem to be working have you looked into possible physical reasons for the misbehavior? I ask this because I personally know of 2 horses who became very aggressive when training started & both had been brought up correctly.
Both were also Paints, both had congenital bone cysts in the large bones causing pain when worked.
I hope this isn't the problem with your horse but it may be worth looking into.
 
#15 ·
Alright, it seems I need to clear up some things.

The first is my horse as been checkedand double checked by several vets. He also had a chiropracter come out and look at him when he first started showing signs of being pushy (the first thing he ever did was insist on charging down hills, even while he walked like a gentleman up the hills). He has also had visits from equine massage therapists back when I was boarding him at a stables (he is being kept on my property now, but this started far before I moved him).

Secondly, when I talk about my horse coming after me, I'm talking about with his hind end. He has never charged me face first, but more of him turning his butt at me and backing up while bucking or just shuffling really quickly in my direction.

Thirdly, he is working with a professional trainer. He does this at the walk, from the second he is asked to lunge. She turnes his head in when he starts to turn his butt towards her, but he will still shuffle backwards into her. I have a whip. It's five ft long with an added six ft section of nylon rope (thin, though). She uses it, but it seems to make him more fired up, and act more aggressively. The trainer seems to think it's more ofa game to him than actual aggressive behavior, but regardless, it's still extremely dangerous.

There's a "horse whisperer" who lives behind me. Is that something that would help, or is he just going to do what my trainer is doing?
 
#17 ·
Alright, it seems I need to clear up some things.

The first is my horse as been checkedand double checked by several vets. He also had a chiropracter come out and look at him when he first started showing signs of being pushy (the first thing he ever did was insist on charging down hills, even while he walked like a gentleman up the hills). He has also had visits from equine massage therapists back when I was boarding him at a stables (he is being kept on my property now, but this started far before I moved him).

Secondly, when I talk about my horse coming after me, I'm talking about with his hind end. He has never charged me face first, but more of him turning his butt at me and backing up while bucking or just shuffling really quickly in my direction.

Thirdly, he is working with a professional trainer. He does this at the walk, from the second he is asked to lunge. She turnes his head in when he starts to turn his butt towards her, but he will still shuffle backwards into her. I have a whip. It's five ft long with an added six ft section of nylon rope (thin, though). She uses it, but it seems to make him more fired up, and act more aggressively. The trainer seems to think it's more ofa game to him than actual aggressive behavior, but regardless, it's still extremely dangerous.

There's a "horse whisperer" who lives behind me. Is that something that would help, or is he just going to do what my trainer is doing?
I have watched my own trainer deal with this with several horses, including my own. They should NEVER turn their butt to you, as you know. What he does to correct this is somewhat what your trainer is already doing-with one hand(the hand one the side of the head in that direction), pull the rope/line so that the head comes toward you. With the other (the hand on the side of the butt in that direction) lunge forward, with the foot on the saome side the whip is in, outstretching your arm and cracking the whip at the horses butt (not hitting it) at the same time. hard to explain, but really quick and works like a charm. So, if the horse is going to the left, use your left hand to pull the head, to tuen it in, and at the same time, lunge at the butt with your right foot and arm, cracking the whip. If, for some reason, the horse does NOT turn its butt, stop and face you, try again, but you may have to actually smack his butt. Not hard, but he has to know you mean business. Use this tecchnique to reinforce turning head to face you whenever he stops lunging.
Try it-hope it helps.
 
#16 ·
It depends on how he whispers :wink:

Why don't you go and see how he works with horses and determine for yourself if it would be beneficial to you and your horse? Talk to him, ask him questions, find out if he has dealt with aggressive horses before and what the outcome was.

It is impossible for us to say how effective he is as a trainer without this type of information.
 
#19 · (Edited)
Well, timing is also a crucial factor in these situations, if you could possibly post a video of his behaviour that would really help us pinpoint the issue?

There is a training saying that I love and I think applies to your boy:

"Direction is better than correction"

Just means that you are better off guiding a young horse properly and avoiding the bad behaviour than allowing the behaviour to happen and then try and punish them for it.

In your case I would suggest that your trainer needs to be more decisive and aggressive with their behaviour and EARLIER. So don't wait until the horse has stopped and allow him to turn his butt towards you. Don't wait until his ears are pinned flat back on his head, you know what is coming. If he is kicking out you are FAR too late.

When you see an early warning sign, and it may be a swish of the tail, a head throw, a skipped step, drive drive drive with your body, with the whip and with your voice. By the time he has stopped and turned, you have lost the moment and all you are left with is punishment.

Just my thoughts but a video would sure be helpful.
 
#21 ·
I am in a similar position. Brown kicks out at me when I lunge him as well, usually when I ask him to work harder than he wants. He doesn't do this with my father in law at all so I know it's me. I haven't been kicked in the head but I have been charged three times by him and he also took off with me at a gymkhana a week and a half ago, which I ended up with two severly bruised knees from an emergency dismount. I notice his behavior changes and he tries to get the upper hand the second I lose some confidence or it isn't clear what I want from him. With him I just have to be clear and confident ( not easy when I am naturally shy and go with flow kind of girl). My father in law seems to think he is playing and sees me as a playmate and I am most definately not playing. I have found a trainer since my fall and have been working off her very valuable knowledge for gaining his respect no matter what I ask of him. Just wanted to let you know you aren't alone : ) I am learning some good tips from your thread as well. I hope you start making some positive progress soon.
 
#23 ·
Even softies like me who work with horses all the time understand there is a time when you have to be aggressive enough that your horse believes you are going to kill him. This has to be done WITHOUT anger or spite (he is a horse and does not fully understand that when he kicks you that it might kill you). But there are a few behaviors from horses that should be met with zero tolerance. Kicking at you, biting you, stomping on you, etc. When these behaviors are directed intentionally at you, you must show extreme aggression toward the horse. This means loud noises, smacks, snapping with the whip, hitting with rope, anything that will not actually injure your horse but will scare him into thinking you could kill him if you wanted to.
I agree with what this says.

My horse used to do this to me and now I hear he is testing my little sister some times in the same way.

When he would turn and kick at me I would smack his hind end with the end of my rope (because I didn't have a whip) not enough to hurt him but hard enough to catch his attention and at the same time I would pull his head around to face me so that he couldn't kick me. After 2-3 times of that he decided that if he was going to have to face me he would charge me. I reacted more than thought about it but my reaction was to first get out of his way but second hold his lead like I was repelling off a mtn behind my butt this, at a weight of 95-100 lbs, allowed me the leverage to hold onto the 1000 lbs running horse. Have you ever seen a dog run to the end of it's leash only to be stopped cold and sent into a spin? Well THAT is exactly what happened to my horse. He was whipped around at the end of his lead rope and he just stopped and stared at me and I think we both had the same reaction "Did that really just happen?" He tried a few more times but each time he did I made it very clear to him that that was not an act I wanted him to ever repeat and eventually he stopped. Now I am working with my little sister so she can re teach him the same lesson.... he likes to test newbies.
 
#24 ·
Before I post anything,I just want to let people know first off,I am not a huge fan of whips,but sometimes it is necessary to give a horse like the posters a good smack on the butt,not too hard just enough to get their attention.I've delt with quite a few kickers in the past and actually had the same situation come upon me with my new mare. Basically the same thing:Spazz out and gallop around the round pen at mach three kicking out at me,nearly took my head off.I tried to avoid using my dressage whip by turning her over and over again and even tried letting her run herself out.But she wouldn't quit the hissy fit,so when she yet again galloped too close for comfort and when to kick at me I landed a good but not too hard smack on her butt.She stopped almost immediately stopped.Again,I try everything else before resorting to a smack with a whip.But in a highly dangerous situation like the posters, unfortunately this measure is is a necessary measure.

To the poster all I can suggest to you is if you try letting him run his self out,or any other tactics and non work,all I can say is he may need a good smack on the butt with your lunge whip.But again,try other things first.
 
#36 ·
I can agree,as I said,way too close for my comfort,but then again what else was I supposed to do?Running's not an option(worst thing you can do in that situation),working in a 50 foot round pen really doesn't give you alot of room(well at least when your dealing with a horse gone psycho).Best action I thought at the time was get out of her way,and deal out some tough love.It worked,she knocked it off,let her gain her wits for a bit,went back to lunging,not an issue again after that.
Didn't have a lunge whip on hand at the time either,it broke after years of use :P
I defiantly would never suggest a client or even a professional do that for any matter,but as I said,tough situation to get stuck in.
 
#26 ·
Not gonna lie, I wouldn't put up with that. People send horse's to my trainers who have bad behavior about things like that (but not just like that haha:) ) And he fixes that. He doesn't abuse by any means, he just basically shows them who the boss is and doesn't let them get away with it. Try sending him to someone like that? He seems like a nice horse in the ground, but if he has more energy than normal, lunging is kind of a must, I would think.

I've had mine for 3 almost 4 years and still to this day I lunge him until hes very tired. He's now 8 years old and dead broke. Otherwise, he still tries to buck or the occasional spook at something stupid. But that's just his mentality haha :)

Really, good luck with him! I'd be scared of him too!
 
#27 ·
Well, no offense, but some of us wouldn't put up with a horse who is "dead broke" and bucks unless you lunge the $#*t out of them prior to riding.
I do agree that kicking is, at least for me, a "deal breaker". That means that if my horse would try to kick me, he would honestly think he was gonna die for a few seconds. If it meant actually using my whip on his butt-so be it. I will not tolerate dangerous behavior, and I will be VERY clear that it is not acceptable
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