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Problems lounging (Horse kicks at my head)

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        01-25-2011, 08:12 PM
      #31
    Trained
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by franknbeans    
    Well, no offense, but some of us wouldn't put up with a horse who is "dead broke" and bucks unless you lunge the $#*t out of them prior to riding...Posted via Mobile Device
    I figure a horse ought to be able to work and control himself as soon as I take him out. I rank that in with moving off when I'm getting in the saddle, or just on - the horse can wait for me to tell him to go forward.

    Then we can walk forward. If he doesn't like that, we can walk backwards instead. My mare is the sort that sometimes has to check to see if I"m paying attention, and I'd better be. If I let her get away with small things, she'll soon be attempting big things.

    Training starts the moment the horse sees me. By the time I get in the saddle, we have 10-15 minutes of training already in the bag.

    I'm far too inexperienced to try training a brand new horse, but we bought an unbroke Arabian mare, had a trainer break her to ride, and then we rode her out. We sold her recently, but the Arabian I kept went a year without riding before I got her.

    Horses are subtle. Taking one step doesn't seem like much to us, but it is a sign to them.

    As for kicking - the one time my mare turned her butt to me while tense, I picked up a rock the size of my fist and popped her in the butt so hard I thought I'd need a vet come remove it. She took off away from me. A couple of stones kept her moving, and then swinging the halter and lead rope. She hasn't tried that again (she has turned her butt to me, but only when she wants it scratched - huge difference in posture).

    Is that mean? Well, she's the lead mare. If any other horse we've owned threatened her with their butt, she'd be all over it. Teeth, hooves - she'd kick some big time butt, and there would probably be some blood to show for it. I've never seen a horse threatened by another that seemed worried about hurting the other horse. It either gives way, or beats the other horse.

    One reason I sold the other mare was that she hated my gelding. And once in a while, she'd challenge him. The gelding would lay into her and only speed would save her. He cornered her once, I'd guess, and nailed her with both feet, and drew blood with both hooves. So we kept them separate, and I eventually sold her (to a home a mile away, where she is ridden often and adores the other mare - and I darn near gave her away free to get her there).

    Horses that buck or kick aren't cute, aren't friendly and aren't broke. The may have other redeeming features, but my mare wouldn't tolerate that sort of rebellion, so why should I?

    And it starts prior to the kick...
         
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        01-25-2011, 08:13 PM
      #32
    Weanling
    Hold him on a short enough lead that he is physically incapable of reaching the person lunging him to kick. Yes, that would be very short, leadrope or shorter. The main goal of lunging is to have the horse move away from you in a controlled manner. The smaller and tighter the circles are, the less freedom he has on where he moves, simple as that.
         
        01-25-2011, 10:10 PM
      #33
    Foal
    I don't think that anybody is fully understanding this, and perhaps it is my fault. I will try to get a video of this as soon as my ground isn't slippery mud.

    Basically, this is the break down of what happens. The lunge line is placed on the horse (and for the last several months it has been by a PROFESSIONAL trainer, who I like very much, and has achieved a lot with him, minus the lunging. She begins moving with him in a small circle. The first thing he does is pivot. That is probably my fault, because I taught him to pivot at a young age and have rewarded him greatly for that. Eventually (meaning like, the fourth or fifth try), he will begin to WALK in a circle at the lunge. He does it well until about the third time around, and then without any instigation (nothing has changed with the trainer, she isn't asking him to do anything different), and without getting hyper, bolting, speeding up, or bucking, he just stops and kicks at the person who is lunging him's head.

    The trainer deals with this IMMEDIATELY by yelling, throwing the rope at his hind end or using the whip on his hind end, and turning his head towards her. SHe does this all at the same time, which seems like it's exactly in line with what has been suggested on here.

    He reacts to this in three seperate ways. The most severe way is, instead of turning his head towards her when she pulls it in that direction, he well violently buck backwards. Basically, she's pulling his head at her, and instead of turning he's just bucking into her.

    The second reaction that he has done in the past is pretty much the same thing, except he will bunny hop backwards instead of violently buck, and try to knock the person down with his butt. He has only done this with the first trainer, though, who doesn't see him anymore.

    The other thing he will do is stop the kicking and continue to walk in a circle for a few times before he decides he's done. If that happens, he will either kick again, just stand there (which he will do, with absolutely no reaction to the rope, the whip, clicking, kissing, or yelling), or coming into the center (again, with absolutely no reaction to being corrected). The latter is the most common one.

    He's really only kicked out of excitement a few times. 90% of the time is when he is perfectly calm and walking. His only warning sign is that he starts to lose focus (whether he sees something or hears something), and bringing his attention back towards the handler only works about 30% of the time.
         
        01-25-2011, 10:15 PM
      #34
    Yearling
    Wink

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Infinity    
    I don't think that anybody is fully understanding this, and perhaps it is my fault. I will try to get a video of this as soon as my ground isn't slippery mud.

    Basically, this is the break down of what happens. The lunge line is placed on the horse (and for the last several months it has been by a PROFESSIONAL trainer, who I like very much, and has achieved a lot with him, minus the lunging. She begins moving with him in a small circle. The first thing he does is pivot. That is probably my fault, because I taught him to pivot at a young age and have rewarded him greatly for that. Eventually (meaning like, the fourth or fifth try), he will begin to WALK in a circle at the lunge. He does it well until about the third time around, and then without any instigation (nothing has changed with the trainer, she isn't asking him to do anything different), and without getting hyper, bolting, speeding up, or bucking, he just stops and kicks at the person who is lunging him's head.

    The trainer deals with this IMMEDIATELY by yelling, throwing the rope at his hind end or using the whip on his hind end, and turning his head towards her. SHe does this all at the same time, which seems like it's exactly in line with what has been suggested on here.

    He reacts to this in three seperate ways. The most severe way is, instead of turning his head towards her when she pulls it in that direction, he well violently buck backwards. Basically, she's pulling his head at her, and instead of turning he's just bucking into her.

    The second reaction that he has done in the past is pretty much the same thing, except he will bunny hop backwards instead of violently buck, and try to knock the person down with his butt. He has only done this with the first trainer, though, who doesn't see him anymore.

    The other thing he will do is stop the kicking and continue to walk in a circle for a few times before he decides he's done. If that happens, he will either kick again, just stand there (which he will do, with absolutely no reaction to the rope, the whip, clicking, kissing, or yelling), or coming into the center (again, with absolutely no reaction to being corrected). The latter is the most common one.

    He's really only kicked out of excitement a few times. 90% of the time is when he is perfectly calm and walking. His only warning sign is that he starts to lose focus (whether he sees something or hears something), and bringing his attention back towards the handler only works about 30% of the time.
    Wow.. That's insane!!

    And I'm sorry, I didn't mean for you to leave your trainer (I wouldn't leave mine ever either!) I just meant send him to someone for a week or so to see if they can fix it.

    But that seems a little extreme.. Not going to lie, I'd either stop lunging if that's the only thing he's horrible with, or build a round pen? I'm not sure, but mines not very good on the lunge line but he's good in a round pen.

    Good luck.. sounds like you have a huge handful!
         
        01-25-2011, 10:28 PM
      #35
    Foal
    He has other problems, too, but they're easily explainable. He's horrible with the farrier, but at the same time, he's young, doesn't understand, and gets bored easily. He's fine if he's busy (like if I pez feed him treats). His previous farriers just sedated him, which wasn't solving the problem. I found a great farrier who will hold on to him even if he has all four feet in the air or has laid down and is trying to roll over (he seems to think that if you pick his foot up high, he needs to lay down).

    The second problem he has is when you lead him down a hill, he charges. I'm not sure if it's a balance problem, because it's only on steep hills, or if he just thinks it's fun. A place I had him boarded at had a steep hill, and they told me when the sun started coming up he'd run up the hill and run back down, for apparently no reason, until he was fed.

    Other than that, he's perfect. He does all the Parelli excercises with ease (except lunging, of course). Nothing spooks him. He pivots, can say "yes" on command, bows, knows the words "over", "back", and "come", lets you hug all over him, mess with his ears, nose, whatever. He's just a big goof. He can be saddled, I can get up on him and be led around, but it's really never progressed more than that because if I can't lunge him, I'm worried about driving him.
         
        01-25-2011, 11:13 PM
      #36
    Foal
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by franknbeans    
    If you are close enough to smack her butt with a dressage whip, you are too close, imo. Lunge whip, nh "happy stick" or end of the line- would be better.
    Posted via Mobile Device
    I can agree,as I said,way too close for my comfort,but then again what else was I supposed to do?Running's not an option(worst thing you can do in that situation),working in a 50 foot round pen really doesn't give you alot of room(well at least when your dealing with a horse gone psycho).Best action I thought at the time was get out of her way,and deal out some tough love.It worked,she knocked it off,let her gain her wits for a bit,went back to lunging,not an issue again after that.
    Didn't have a lunge whip on hand at the time either,it broke after years of use :P
    I defiantly would never suggest a client or even a professional do that for any matter,but as I said,tough situation to get stuck in.
         
        01-25-2011, 11:21 PM
      #37
    Green Broke
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by franknbeans    
    If you are close enough to smack her butt with a dressage whip, you are too close, imo. Lunge whip, nh "happy stick" or end of the line- would be better.
    Posted via Mobile Device
    Agree with this. Primarily in the interests of safety and secondarily in the interests of training.

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Northern    
    I'd like to suggest that trainers are no good unless they teach you to handle your horse better. If the whisperer's any good, he'll tell you what to do.

    Also, I'd step back a couple of steps with the horse, because usually it's not a great foundation if that's happening on the longe. It's just that the horse is telling you in subtle ways that he doesn't get a good "feel" from you, that you haven't noticed. When he gets out there, the subtle turns into obvious.
    Excellent point, training the horse is only half the battle, and I don't mean that to be offensive Infinity! It is just important that you are comfortable working with your own horse and learn the techniques to deal with his bad behaviour.

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Infinity    
    I don't think that anybody is fully understanding this, and perhaps it is my fault. I will try to get a video of this as soon as my ground isn't slippery mud.

    Basically, this is the break down of what happens. The lunge line is placed on the horse (and for the last several months it has been by a PROFESSIONAL trainer, who I like very much, and has achieved a lot with him, minus the lunging. She begins moving with him in a small circle. The first thing he does is pivot. That is probably my fault, because I taught him to pivot at a young age and have rewarded him greatly for that. Eventually (meaning like, the fourth or fifth try), he will begin to WALK in a circle at the lunge. He does it well until about the third time around, and then without any instigation (nothing has changed with the trainer, she isn't asking him to do anything different), and without getting hyper, bolting, speeding up, or bucking, he just stops and kicks at the person who is lunging him's head.

    The trainer deals with this IMMEDIATELY by yelling, throwing the rope at his hind end or using the whip on his hind end, and turning his head towards her. SHe does this all at the same time, which seems like it's exactly in line with what has been suggested on here.

    He reacts to this in three seperate ways. The most severe way is, instead of turning his head towards her when she pulls it in that direction, he well violently buck backwards. Basically, she's pulling his head at her, and instead of turning he's just bucking into her.

    The second reaction that he has done in the past is pretty much the same thing, except he will bunny hop backwards instead of violently buck, and try to knock the person down with his butt. He has only done this with the first trainer, though, who doesn't see him anymore.

    The other thing he will do is stop the kicking and continue to walk in a circle for a few times before he decides he's done. If that happens, he will either kick again, just stand there (which he will do, with absolutely no reaction to the rope, the whip, clicking, kissing, or yelling), or coming into the center (again, with absolutely no reaction to being corrected). The latter is the most common one.

    He's really only kicked out of excitement a few times. 90% of the time is when he is perfectly calm and walking. His only warning sign is that he starts to lose focus (whether he sees something or hears something), and bringing his attention back towards the handler only works about 30% of the time.
    WOW. On the contrary, I think I DO understand. In fact this situation sounds too dire and dangerous for me to feel good about offering advice in a forum environment.

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Infinity    
    He has other problems, too, but they're easily explainable. He's horrible with the farrier, but at the same time, he's young, doesn't understand, and gets bored easily. He's fine if he's busy (like if I pez feed him treats). His previous farriers just sedated him, which wasn't solving the problem. I found a great farrier who will hold on to him even if he has all four feet in the air or has laid down and is trying to roll over (he seems to think that if you pick his foot up high, he needs to lay down).

    Issue no.1: Sedating doesn't solve anything. If anything it just makes things worse. This information tells me that the horse has serious issues, complete lack of respect for people and major holes in its training.

    The second problem he has is when you lead him down a hill, he charges. I'm not sure if it's a balance problem, because it's only on steep hills, or if he just thinks it's fun. A place I had him boarded at had a steep hill, and they told me when the sun started coming up he'd run up the hill and run back down, for apparently no reason, until he was fed.

    Issue no. 2: If it were a balance issue you would see a stumble, a missed step or perhaps a general unwillingness to go down the hill. Charging down the hill tells me that he does not see his handler as a leader in any way shape or form.

    Other than that, he's perfect.
    Other than what? Potentially being life threatening? Bucking backwards into the handler while kicking at their head?
    He does all the Parelli excercises with ease (except lunging, of course). Nothing spooks him. He pivots, can say "yes" on command, bows, knows the words "over", "back", and "come", lets you hug all over him, mess with his ears, nose, whatever. He's just a big goof. He can be saddled, I can get up on him and be led around, but it's really never progressed more than that because if I can't lunge him, I'm worried about driving him.
    I would not be driving him either! No freakin way!

    Please don't be offended by anything I have said, or am about to say but this horse is seriously concerning. Actually I think the lungeing is the least of your concerns, it is just one symptom of a far greater underlying issue: Your horse has no respect.

    In my opinion, I would also be keeping the 'hugging all over him' to a minimum as it is showing him that it is OK to be in your personal space.

    At 3 years old he is only going to get bigger and uglier if he doesn't start viewing you as the boss. Sure he might be sweet sometimes but that has no value if he is allowed to dictate when he chooses to behave and when he chooses to put you in danger.
         
        01-25-2011, 11:52 PM
      #38
    Trained
    ^^ Good post Sarah-well said. I also totally agree with the trainer also training the owner. Too many horses go thru months of training, go home to the owner, and go right back to square one. I find this with my own guy. I can send him for training, and that is great, they will get him to stop his bad behavior for them, but then when I get back on him, I have to solve it myself. He just tests.....think he wants to make sure I was paying attention. Mind you it is easier BC if him having been with the trainer, but still....I have to establish his respect for ME.
         
        01-25-2011, 11:56 PM
      #39
    Foal
    LOl might as well say people training,instead of horse training XD
         
        01-26-2011, 12:01 AM
      #40
    Foal
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by franknbeans    
    I also totally agree with the trainer also training the owner. Too many horses go thru months of training, go home to the owner, and go right back to square one.
    Agreed.I can't help but rip out my hair in frustration when I see people sending their horses away for like 5 months,and then when they get back they do absolutely nothing with them and expect when ever they do actually get around to spending time with their horse that expensive training has magically disappeared.
         

    Tags
    afraid of my horse, aggression, kicking, lounging, lunging

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