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Problems (replies soon would me great)

This is a discussion on Problems (replies soon would me great) within the Horse Training forums, part of the Training Horses category

     
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        05-28-2009, 09:45 AM
      #11
    Showing
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by luvs2ride1979    
    When he goes down and begins to buck, YANK his head back up and KICK him into a tight circle, yelling "QUIT THAT".
    For standing while mounting, you just need to be more persistent. When he moves, swat him on the chest with a whip and say "QUIT" and back him up to where he was.
    I am sorry, but I disagree with this completely. Yanking and kicking will create more problems than it solves and you could end up with a hyper-reactive horse who freaks every time you lift a rein, move a leg, or say anything while riding. My philosophy is be as soft as possible but as firm as necessary. As for popping him on the chest while mounting, that works okay for a calm but disrespectful horse who just kinda walks away, but she has a problem with him bucking while mounting. Swatting him when he is bucking will just encourage him to buck more and harder. It could also make him very antsy when you are moving around him and make mounting harder.

    I thoroughly believe there are some times when a horse needs to have a good pop to get his attention or reprimand a bad behavior (biting, kicking, or invading your space) but I don't believe that a smack or kick will solve all problems.
         
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        05-28-2009, 10:02 AM
      #12
    Weanling
    Does his saddle fit correctly? Cus thata could most defenantly be the problame.
         
        05-28-2009, 10:14 AM
      #13
    Green Broke
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by smrobs    
    I am sorry, but I disagree with this completely. Yanking and kicking will create more problems than it solves and you could end up with a hyper-reactive horse who freaks every time you lift a rein, move a leg, or say anything while riding. My philosophy is be as soft as possible but as firm as necessary. As for popping him on the chest while mounting, that works okay for a calm but disrespectful horse who just kinda walks away, but she has a problem with him bucking while mounting. Swatting him when he is bucking will just encourage him to buck more and harder. It could also make him very antsy when you are moving around him and make mounting harder.

    I thoroughly believe there are some times when a horse needs to have a good pop to get his attention or reprimand a bad behavior (biting, kicking, or invading your space) but I don't believe that a smack or kick will solve all problems.
    Well, it's worked very well and very quickly for me. None of my horses are hyperactive or extra sensitive as a result. They're all pretty level headed and quiet once we get past a rough spot in their training.

    Bucking is not something I take lightly. It's a major offense to me.

    But hey, whatever works, right? Every horse and situation is different .
         
        05-28-2009, 10:45 AM
      #14
    Weanling
    Bucking is a fight reflex. I have argued with people about this before, but the beginning to solving the problem can be done with your feet safely on the ground. Your horse is actually already showing you signs of this while you are lunging by stopping. Like Luvs2Ride said, get behind the driveline when he wants to stop while lunging and push forward. Signs of a fighty horse are stopping, usually pretty relaxed, when pushed a little, the energy (since stopped) goes straight up, resulting in rearing or bucking. If I were to go work with your horse on a lunge line, I would know the horse had a tendency to buck just by the stopping reaction, its all tied together.

    The opposite of fight is flight, to work through this, you will actually need to put a little flight in your horse to balance him out. Pushing through the person holding for mounting is also a fight reflex. When he stops on the lunge, allow him to make the transition, but then push forward again, preferrably to a trot. Its your job to make the upward transitions, his job to make the downward. It is harder for him to stop walk stop walk than it is to continually walk. With a really "stoppy" horse, I will push them more when they stop, sometimes this will completely open up the flight reflex and they will take off. This is fine, I am actually thrilled when I see a fight horse make this change. They are moving forward instead of straight up! Hold on to the line, stay strong in your core, and let him come all the way back down to a relaxed walk. His head should be level or below his withers with an easy flow to his movement that looks like something you would want to ride. Work through all of the gaits until you achieve this calm relaxed state in each, then repeat with tack, this is the first step of your process and may take a while. We need to find a balance between fight and flight to train your horse how to react to things reasonably.

    Next is mounting, after he has found the relaxation in the gaits on the lungeline, he needs to be taught to bring you the saddle. At the moment, he has a negative view on riding (made apparent through the bucking under saddle) this leads to not wanting to be mounted. I would use a mounting block, less stress on their back and also gives a horse an opportunity to offer his back to you. Stand on the block, use a regular lead to lunge him at a walk in a small circle around the block. He will try different things, changing direction, stopping, facing you, just calmly keep him moving until he stops with his back along side of you. You can help him with this by giving the whoa command when he is in position to help him understand what you want. Some may say this teaches them to move at the block, but it acutally works just the opposite. Once he stands there, wait for him to become completely calm. Lay across his back with your feet still on the block. If he moves, start at the beginning again (yes with some horses this takes a long time, but it sticks once they get it). When he can stand with you laying on his back, stand up and put your foot in the stirrup, if he moves, start over again with moving him around you until he offers you the saddle. Make sure he isn't just standing, but calm and relaxed with each step before you move to the next. Once you can get on him, sit for a minute, take a few walk steps at the most, and dismount and end your session.

    Take it slow once you start riding again. Horses love to be ridden if the rider is useful to the horse. Too many times we see a relationship with a horse as the horses job to carry us and what they can do for us. If you offer to do something for them through your riding (whole 'nother subject), you will be surprised how much your horse offers back and how much they look forward to getting worked.

    I have worked with many horses with identical problems to your guy, this is a long path, but once the undersaddle work resumes, you will be surprised that once the mind and body are balanced, your bucking problems dissipate without any harsh disciplining or bruises. Let me know if you have any questions, good luck!
         
        06-05-2009, 09:06 AM
      #15
    Started
    In addition to watching your position when lunging, keeping behind the driveline when you want your horse to move forward, is the spot where your horse stops the spot on the circle closest to his barn, his pasture, or any other "magnet?" If so, that issue could be some budding barn sourness, etc. To help that, try to keep him moving on the lungeline clost to the magnet, and rest him farther away. Vary your resting point, though, or you'll condition a new magnet instead of diffusing the old one.
         
        06-05-2009, 10:16 AM
      #16
    Foal
    "If you offer to do something for them through your riding (whole 'nother subject), you will be surprised how much your horse offers back and how much they look forward to getting worked."


    Flitterbug, I would be very interested to hear more about this "whole 'nother subject". Have you posted about it somewhere else??
         
        06-05-2009, 01:54 PM
      #17
    Weanling
    Bits and pieces. Too often we see progress in riding as what we have achieved, how fast we can go, how high we can jump. People are always in a rush to just see how they can get their horse to listen. To create the ideal horse, we have to balance the mind and the body. Any horse is capable of this, once you understand, there is no such thing as a horse that will always be spooky, always bolt, always buck, or even just has a bad attitude. What we see as behavior problems are usually just holes somewhere along in the training. Once we get a grasp on the horses mind, we only make that more solid as we work on the horses body. This is what is lacking in many NH Guru's teachings. Even all of the "disengagement of the hind end" is very dangerous for a horse if the horse doesn't have proper flexion through the stifles (which most do not).

    A rider has the ability to make a horse feel better. We usually get on the horse thinking of what the horse can do for us. People want to ride because it makes them feel good, we focus on the horses behavior because that is what we need to make a successful ride with no "rebellion". However, we will find the most cooperative horse on the ground and under saddle can be difficult to catch because their constant obeying causes them physical pain. Being around a person makes them hurt instead of feel better. Have you ever gotten on a horse and had your first thought be "what can I do for you today?". Once you do, you begin what can be very slow and tedious work (you can't start going to the gym today and have a model body tomorrow, right?). Most horses have postures that would make us cringe if we saw a human carrying their bodies the same way, but many people don't see it, they see a "big butt" or "pretty colors". A lot of horses are also crooked through their bodies, try sticking your butt out, stomach to the left, head to the right, and chin in the air and walk, this is how many horses that I see are traveling. My own horse was stuck here at one point, completely obedient except he dropped his shoulder in his left lead around corners. I did walk work only with him for several months, decided to ask for canter one day and we didn't fall around corners!

    As a trained rider, we have the ability to feel small differences, and fix those differences. It is as physically taxing on the rider, and may not be the most relaxing ride, but will be rewarding.

    Here is a ride I had on a horse I had leased out, in detail (horse requires a lot of fixer upper work, will never again do that)

    Horse was leased for 1 year, no longer backed up, saddle that had fit for years was suddenly sliding back, refused to use hind end when came home.

    Back was dropped behind withers, left side half in higher than right, barrel was shifted to left to take weight off of right leg since right hip was out. Tight hamstrings, weak quads and gluteal muscles, tightness in the neck causing mane to flip closer to the poll, horse had been leaning on the bit and using that as balance, heavy movement on front legs.

    Ride - started out pressed as far back in the saddle as I could, requiring tightening of my gluteals, back flat, abs in, rib cage pressed out, lifting front of pelvis off saddle, slightly more pressure on left side, closing in left thigh until horse swapped to right, switch seat pattern. Bring lower leg back on side with more weight, encouraging tightening of her abdominals and lifting of the back. Minimal rein use with this particular horse, she tends to over use the riders hands, so I don't give her the option and just work primarily through seat and leg. Takes about 20 minutes before the horse finally releases some of the tension through the topline and lets her head drop, encourage with leg to track up with hind legs and tip pelvis forward. Hold as long as she can until she falls back out to the left, rinse and repeat.

    I never came out of the walk for 1 hour, I fixed the right hip manually from the ground, that helped out in the ride. I worked my butt off, but she was much more relaxed and willing when the ride was over than once she started. When she realized the small things I was asking made her body feel better, she showed less resistance. It will probably take several weeks of this 5 times a week before being able to go to trot, but the horse will be more willing for the work, as she will feel better after each session.

    I can also tell you that 90% of horse owners wouldn't even see a physical problem with this horse, no lameness, just stubborn - refuses to back up, impatient - rushes forward, lays on riders hands, choppy - hard gaits to ride as she is dropping her back, not flexing through her joints, and holding head in the air, unwilling - moving while cinching, nervous for mounting.

    This may be completely confusing, but given the other things I mentioned going on in her body before I got on her, would you want to be ridden if you were her? I can go on and on, but I probably just completely bored you. Plus I gotta run, buh-bye.
         

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