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question about bosals

This is a discussion on question about bosals within the Horse Training forums, part of the Training Horses category
  • How a bosal stops a horse
  • Horse won't stop running in a hackamore

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    08-15-2012, 09:56 AM
  #21
Trained
Quote:
Originally Posted by loosie    




A (real)hackamore, or halter with both reins attached under the chin does have a different feel, so for a horse that's trained with only direct rein pressure, or one that's learned to evade, or just not learned to yield effectively to other cues, some 'back to basics' lessons are important, then a few rides at least in a safe environment prudent before going out & about in it.

But as for it being such an 'art form' way different to teaching a horse to yield to a bit, and going on about 'calling bluff', that's just wrong IME. Perhaps it may be seen as such for people who rely on pain to force a horse to do stuff, but if they don't use a bit in that way, there's no huge difference(tho you can hurt a horse with a halter, bosal & particularly with a mechanical bitless contraption too). Even if you do like to control with strong force, horses 'call bluff' and refuse to yield to bit pressure too, just think about all the 'harsher bit' & 'my horse won't stop' threads. It's down to good or bad riding/training IMO, not the 'tool'.

As a matter of fact, I find 'spoiled' horses who have learned to evade or otherwise react to bit pressure *generally*(not always) go better in a halter. When 'retraining', I also start in a halter & find problems often just seem to melt away without much effort. Suppose it's my 'safety chain' but for confirmed 'bolters' or such that I'm training, usually the first rides out I do with both halter and bitted bridle, for Justin, but I find it's extremely rare that I feel the need to resort to the bit reins for extra control.
Most folks don't have the slightest clue about how to ride in a Hackamore/bosal setup. Like smrobs stated, they think they are getting something done in a corral trotting circles. But if they had to go outside and get something done, like run down and rope something, you are going to find your "holes" real quick. That doesn't mean that me or anyone else is resorting to pain to control a horse. That would be like saying that all people who use bits use pain to control their horse, not true.
I know of some folks that are exceptionaly handy with one, myself, I am not. But I am always learning and striving to get there. I rode a horse that was the AQHA jr. Cowhorse world champion, rode in a hackamore. That horse was lighter in the face than any horse I had ever ridden. She wasn't constantly ridden in the hackamore never in a Stop and Turn. And that's where I want to be. If it isn't an art form or harder than it appears, than why have have very few horses that were rode in the hackamore won championships?
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    08-15-2012, 12:43 PM
  #22
Foal
Hi Loosie,



For information on the "Q" Bitless Rope Bridle.
     
    08-15-2012, 12:53 PM
  #23
Foal
Those are a nice setup, and reasonably priced for the halter/bridle.

Looks like it works better than when we just tie the lead around as a rein
     
    08-15-2012, 01:19 PM
  #24
Showing
Exactly, Chick. Loosie, everything you put on a horse's head is a bluff for the most part. The reason that it takes a very talented horseman to be effective in a bosal is because it's a lot easier for the horse to call the bluff in that than it is in a bit. There comes a time in almost every young horses training where they decide they don't want to listen. If you are using a headstall that has a limited range of escalation, then there is only so much you can do. Just like everything else, pressure and release are of the utmost importance, but if your headstall can only go to level 4 but the horse is willing to go to level 9, then you've already lost and the horse has called your bluff and won.

Most people think they have accomplished something incredible by easing around some pattern in an arena or plodding along a trail ride without a bit, but there is a huge difference between this, which most people see and think "Wow, OMG, that horse is so nice and responsive and amazing"

And this, which most people never see...unfortunately. This guy isn't even the best I've ever seen. Especially considering the accident toward the end. Most folks who "think" their horses are well trained and responsive would have ended up in a wreck instead of just continuing on and handling it the way he and his horse both did.


Just because some of us expect more from our training and our horses than plodding around doesn't mean that we resort to pain an intimidation to train. You simply can't get a nice, calm, relaxed, responsive horse if you train through pain.
     
    08-15-2012, 07:20 PM
  #25
Green Broke
Lol. That Tommy Thompson run was good. He handled that well.
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    08-15-2012, 07:28 PM
  #26
Trained
Yea, that could of went worse..lol!
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    08-15-2012, 08:59 PM
  #27
Yearling
Quote:
Originally Posted by smrobs    
And this, which most people never see...unfortunately. This guy isn't even the best I've ever seen. Especially considering the accident toward the end. Most folks who "think" their horses are well trained and responsive would have ended up in a wreck instead of just continuing on and handling it the way he and his horse both did.
Tommy Thompson wild hackamore run - YouTube


Just because some of us expect more from our training and our horses than plodding around doesn't mean that we resort to pain an intimidation to train. You simply can't get a nice, calm, relaxed, responsive horse if you train through pain.
Now that's composure under fire.
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    08-15-2012, 09:15 PM
  #28
Trained
That is another reason why you don't tie your get down to your saddle. Either put it through your belt loops or down your pant leg so you aren't welded to it..lol
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    08-15-2012, 09:37 PM
  #29
Trained
Quote:
Originally Posted by COWCHICK77    
Most folks don't have the slightest clue about how to ride in a Hackamore/bosal setup. ....Like smrobs stated, they think they are getting something done in a corral trotting circles. But if they had to go outside and get something done
IME there are just as many(more because it's commoner?) that don't have a clue how to ride well with a bit. How many 'hard mouthed' horses do you hear about for eg. I don't believe a bit causes that either, but the hands on the reins & training.

Quote:
That doesn't mean that me or anyone else is resorting to pain to control a horse. That would be like saying that all people who use bits use pain to control their horse, not true.
What I said was; "Perhaps it may be seen as such for people who rely on pain to force a horse to do stuff, but if they don't use a bit in that way, there's no huge difference.." If not for the ability to cause (possibly) sharper pain with a bit, I don't get the difference between using one or not, as far as control, which seems to be what you're saying is lacking with a halter/hack.

Quote:
If it isn't an art form or harder than it appears, than why have have very few horses that were rode in the hackamore won championships?
Rules? Tradition, the norm? Level of training for championships? Hackamores seem to be looked upon more for early/basic/normal training, whereas bitted bridles are looked on as good for more refinement.

Quote:
Loosie, everything you put on a horse's head is a bluff for the most part. The reason that it takes a very talented horseman to be effective in a bosal is because it's a lot easier for the horse to call the bluff in that than it is in a bit.
Your first sentence about is precisely my point!

From what you regularly see at pony clubs, trail riding places, etc, I disagree with your second sentence. It seems to me that, as you've said, SM, everything you put on the horse's head is a bluff if the rider hasn't got a clue/the horse isn't trained well. Again, you both seem to be against the concept of using a bit to control with pain, but if it's not about that, why do you think it's harder to 'bluff' with a bit?

Quote:
but if your headstall can only go to level 4 but the horse is willing to go to level 9, then you've already....
Just because some of us expect more from our training and our horses than plodding around doesn't mean that we resort to pain an intimidation to train. You simply can't get a nice, calm, relaxed, responsive horse if you train through pain.
Please look again at my earlier quote about bits & pain, as both you & Cow seem to have assumed I think bits are all about pain. I don't personally have a problem with a bit when used well on a well trained horse. Your above comments on the matter are contradictory - What on earth do you think 'level 9' about if you don't believe you use pain??
     
    08-15-2012, 10:07 PM
  #30
Showing
Because it's not about pain. I never said that pain never happens, I just said that I don't train through pain. There is a difference. It's about matching the level the horse takes it to. If you ask with a 1 and the horse says no, you take it to 2. If they still say no, then you take it to 3...and so on. That is not training through pain, that's simple pressure and release. I'm not saying that you should take it to 9 in every situation. On a very green horse that is suffering fear or confusion is not where I'm talking about. I'm talking about horses that have been taught how to respond, they are just refusing to do so. Training through pain would be to get on a horse without having ever taught them anything and just yanking and whipping/spurring to force them to do what you wanted.

Training through pressure and release isn't always about using soft pressure only. In some situations and with some horses, you just can't use soft pressure only and hope to get results.
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