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question about bosals

This is a discussion on question about bosals within the Horse Training forums, part of the Training Horses category
  • Hdennis reis bosal
  • Horse doesn't like any bits, should i use a bosal

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    08-15-2012, 09:12 PM
  #31
Green Broke
[quote=loosie;1647111]IME there are just as many(more because it's commoner?) that don't have a clue how to ride well with a bit. How many 'hard mouthed' horses do you hear about for eg. I don't believe a bit causes that either, but the hands on the reins & training.

I agree there are many more that do an injustice to the bit as a hackamore. There seems to be a lack of understanding about what you hang on a horses head. No argument there.


What I said was; "Perhaps it may be seen as such for people who rely on pain to force a horse to do stuff, but if they don't use a bit in that way, there's no huge difference.." If not for the ability to cause (possibly) sharper pain with a bit, I don't get the difference between using one or not, as far as control, which seems to be what you're saying is lacking with a halter/hack.

I am speaking for myself, but the bit may offer more control, only if I choose to use it. Doesn't mean I will. Some horses are more suited and prefer nose pressure rather than a bit...great, but plenty can't get that softness out of one. But it seems that it takes a considerably less time to dull a horses nose than it does his mouth. Hackmore guys that I knew wouldn't even use a halter, they used a neck rope to catch and tie horses to preserve that area. No different than using a hackamore to preserve the mouth.
Not all horses feel the same thing in the same spot. If that was the case, we would only need one kind of device. (Halter/bit/bosal)




Rules? Tradition, the norm? Level of training for championships? Hackamores seem to be looked upon more for early/basic/normal training, whereas bitted bridles are looked on as good for more refinement.

No, not rules. They can be shown until their 5yr old year in a hackamore or a snaffle.
     
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    08-15-2012, 10:29 PM
  #32
Trained
Quote:
Originally Posted by smrobs    
It's about matching the level the horse takes it to. If you ask with a 1 and the horse says no, you take it to 2. If they still say no, then you take it to 3...and so on. That is not training through pain,
When you use 'levels' & they go past discomfort, I don't get how you say it's not about pain. If more a extreme 'level' than discomfort isn't pain, what do you call it? If 'taking it through levels' isn't about training, what is it about? I would say you do this to train a horse that if they don't listen to early signals, it's going to become painful. Eg. You're training your horse to avoid bit pain. And why is it so different without a bit when talking control? Because in your opinion a halter/hack is incapable of going past the level of discomfort. *I'm not saying it's necessarily wrong, but it just.... is.

I actually think that *assuming* building pressure is the way to go in a certain situation, I would not go level 1, 2, 3 & so on, but I tend to go the 1, 2, maybe 3 then something like a 9. As per a discussion I have just had with Cherie, I think it does depend how/when it's done, but agree with her that just gradually increasing pressure to 'match' the horse's resistance often just creates more desensitisation to pressure.

Quote:
Training through pain would be to get on a horse without having ever taught them anything and just yanking and whipping/spurring to force them to do what you wanted.
No, IMO that's just bad.
     
    08-15-2012, 10:57 PM
  #33
Green Broke
I am only speaking for myself....

Where does discomfort or pain have to come into it whether it be bits or hackamores? Some horses learn different ways and respond to different pressure amounts and areas. That is part of of being a good horse trainer, figuring the method to get the desired response. And not requiring pain or intimidation.

I find that some horseowners that have completely baled onto the NH extreme wagon seem to think that bitless is the only way to go. I am sorry but at some point and somehwere pressure needs to be applied to direct the horse otherwise you are riding a runaway. So the ideal situatuon is to apply the pressure in an area where you get a response and only use accordingly. Otherwise you end up with a hard mouthed/nosed/sided horse. But horses have areas that are more prone to being sensitive than others and without proper hands and use you will dull/ruin that area/response. The nose area being one of them. That area goes quick and some horses are never soft or responsive there to begin with. Like I said before, if that was the case we would all be riding our horses in the same gear.
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    08-15-2012, 11:20 PM
  #34
Showing
When you use 'levels' & they go past discomfort, I don't get how you say it's not about pain. If more a extreme 'level' than discomfort isn't pain, what do you call it? If 'taking it through levels' isn't about training, what is it about? I would say you do this to train a horse that if they don't listen to early signals, it's going to become painful. Eg. You're training your horse to avoid bit pain. And why is it so different without a bit when talking control? Because in your opinion a halter/hack is incapable of going past the level of discomfort. *I'm not saying it's necessarily wrong, but it just.... is.

I think you and I have the same train of thought, just on different tracks that can't seem to connect . I'm not explaining myself very well. Training through pain and having to occasionally use pain in your training, IMHO, are not even close to the same things. I only use pain in the situations where it is really needed.

I train using pressure, but if the horse doesn't respond, I will "bump" them with whatever level of pressure I feel they need. That may be a 5, it may be an 11, depending on the horse, then I go right back to a 1. Whether they feel pain with my bump will depend on how hard it is and what the individual horse registers as "pain". For some horses, pain starts at 2, for others, pain starts at 10...same as people.

Thing is, with most horses, if you do your job right, you really shouldn't ever have to go beyond say...a 4. Just a little light bump to remind them that they do need to listen/respond. But, you need to have something on their head that is capable of going beyond that if the need should arise. Ugh, this is so frustrating. I know what I'm trying to say but I just can't seem to find the right words.

Bosals are not any less capable of inflicting pain than a bit (halters, on the other hand, I am thoroughly convinced are not even close), but it is a fact that horses seem to become hard to them a lot faster. Whether that's because they can't take it as high as a bit or horses just get hard on their noses faster or more people are using bitless without knowing how...it still doesn't change the fact that a horse will usually get hard in a bosal used wrong a lot faster than they will a bit used wrong.

I actually think that *assuming* building pressure is the way to go in a certain situation, I would not go level 1, 2, 3 & so on, but I tend to go the 1, 2, maybe 3 then something like a 9. As per a discussion I have just had with Cherie, I think it does depend how/when it's done, but agree with her that just gradually increasing pressure to 'match' the horse's resistance often just creates more desensitization to pressure.

Yes. Since I was talking to a non-beginner, I figured you understood that so I didn't type it out. I guess I should have so that you would have know that I understood it.
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    08-16-2012, 12:21 AM
  #35
Foal
Great responses, its like the guy who says use only as much pressure as it takes to get the response to over simplify it.

I may add if you prepare the horse for that you should only have to use say a 3 or 4 on a scale of 10 for pressure. By the time you get them under saddle they should have an understanding that when you give pressure they need to give into the pressure or give the response that will release that pressure.

Not to change the subject but its the reason a lot of these clinicians have their pupils using the slobber straps that will immediately drop the pressure when transitioning to the snaffle bit.

The best demonstration i've seen on the explanation on Hack's Bits and bridles is from Dennis Reis I have it on DVD and seen it in person. He takes each piece from the Bosal, Hack, Snaffle and Ported bit and explains how each one works and what "level" each one is for. IF you can get a copy of it its worth a watch, and if there are any 4H Saddle club leaders i'd suggest showing it to your Clubs.
     
    08-16-2012, 02:52 AM
  #36
Trained
Quote:
Originally Posted by smrobs    
I think you and I have the same train of thought, just on different tracks that can't seem to connect . I'm not explaining myself very well.
Yes, I agree, from what I've read of your posts, we do seem to be on a similar 'wavelength', so thinking it's a difference of perception. I'm not sure that I'm explaining myself well either, but I'm 'delving' into this further to try to make it clearer. Certainly seems the 'pain to train' idea is perception, because while I too am not adverse to occasional punishment or such when I feel the need, I wouldn't say I disagree with the concept of it because I only use it rarely.

Quote:
Bosals are not any less capable of inflicting pain than a bit (halters, on the other hand, I am thoroughly convinced are not even close), but it is a fact that horses seem to become hard to them a lot faster.
Since the OP was indeed asking about bosals, we come back to what's the difference then. But I don't know that I agree with you about halters or horses not becoming dull to a bit. Perhaps it's my experience though, that I don't have all that much experience with other people riding in halters - aside from those I teach, but it is very common around these parts at least, for people to have at least some degree of problem controlling their horses - & bits are the norm. While I'm not against *well used* bits, I do find that when 'retraining' problem horses, using a halter & no bit tends to make a big positive difference of itself. Perhaps it's just the different feel, I don't know. At a trail riding co I worked for, the boss would put any horse who learned to resist bit pressure into a mechanical bitless(English hack) & this worked fine, allowing average riders to have control.

Quote:
Yes. Since I was talking to a non-beginner, I figured you understood that so I didn't type it out. I guess I should have so that you would have know that I understood it.
Yeah, I might state the obvious sometimes, but since it's a public forum & we only have eachother's words, I like to be as clear as poss!
     
    08-16-2012, 04:05 AM
  #37
Trained
Quote:
Originally Posted by COWCHICK77    
Where does discomfort or pain have to come into it whether it be bits or hackamores?
That's just how they work, like most cues you use for horses. It's called negative reinforcement and the horse learns to avoid discomfort/pain(when done properly) he's learned will come if he ignores/resists initial cues.

As with SM, I suspect the major problem is probably in our different perceptions of terms, because I would have thought the above was.... if not obvious, then at least common knowledge.

Quote:
I am sorry but at some point and somehwere pressure needs to be applied to direct the horse otherwise you are riding a runaway.
I don't get what you're sorry about or... what your point is really. Why do you think the horse wants to yield to the pressure he's learned that response will get rid of, if it's not unpleasant/painful to him?

Quote:
But horses have areas that are more prone to being sensitive than others and without proper hands and use you will dull/ruin that area/response. The nose area being one of them.
As is the mouth - mind you I do think that horses are sensitive all over. But again, what's your point, if not that you think bits can inflict more?
     
    08-16-2012, 02:00 PM
  #38
Green Broke
I had to go back and read this again today..lol...last night while trying to type on my phone, getting horses rode in that perfect time period where the sun has gone but its light enough to ride and having a couple of beers, I wasn't being very clear and not thoroughly reading the posts. My bad.

I see what smrobs was saying about the levels and that makes perfect sense to me. I think some of us have a different idea of maybe what pain is. Not all pressure equals pain. I suppose it depends on what level you take the pressure up to can create pain. The idea is not to start at that level, but to ask by using as little pressure as possible, basic horse training right? Yet folks that have problems with their horses seemed to have missed that day in class. The horse becomes desensitized and they must use that level and increase it in order to get the desired response. That is the thing with the bosal/hackamore, it just doesn't take much for someone without a good feel to ruin the face. If you watch most people even lead their horse in the halter and you can tell that it wouldn't take long to for them to completely desensitize the nose. That's why it wasn't intended for long use. Guys that I have worked with that had it on a horse all day working would adjust it during the day as to not deaden the nose.

I didn't mean to discourage the op from riding in a bosal setup. Anyone can ride in a halter or hackamore. I guess my point was that to do it well and keep him soft requires education and a ton of feel.
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