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question for horse trainers

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        10-13-2013, 09:17 PM
      #1
    Foal
    question for horse trainers

    Imagine you get a horse for training. Would come to you halter broke, but never saddled.
    Would be wonderful to work with from the day one. The owner wants a good trail horse and you'd get her there. You'd make her soft, responsive, calm, going mainly off of seat and leg pressure, crossing anything you can think of, horse would bend backwards for you. Pleasure to ride.
    When you'd think you're done, surprise, surprise...horse bolts and bucks as soon as anyone tries to even get in the saddle. You try different, experienced, people and get the same response every time. You try to get on and the horse doesn't move a muscle.
    What do you do?

    To explain we are progressing and I think I can get her used to her owner. We are at the point where the owner can get safely on and off and somewhat ride her. For the most part I have the horse on the lead rope while the owner rides her. But it is going slow. We went on a 6 mile ride today...yes I walked next to the horse. I am so tired since I spent half a day working other horses.
    I have her trained well, except the silly mare decided to be one person horse and is very obvious about it.
    Yes I taught the owner how to do the ground work, and it has helped. My son is a trainer too, and the owner hired him to ride the mare, that has helped also. She is not anywhere close for him the way she is for me, but is not dangerous, just not very willing.
    I am trying to ride this mare as little as possible and have the owner do all the work while telling her what to do. Owner is loosing confidence, because the mare randomly bolts on her and she ended up on the ground before. It's quite a tall horse, so hitting the ground wasn't fun. (When I get on I can hang the reins on the horn, the mare becomes an angel as soon as I get in the saddle.)

    I know what we are doing works, because the mare is better and better every day. I would just like little less stress for my client.

    I'm sure we all agree there are several ways to train a horse.
    Soooo the question is what would you do? Do you have other ideas on what would work?
    Have you dealt with a situation like this before? If so how did you handle it?

    Thanks
         
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        10-14-2013, 12:10 PM
      #2
    Foal
    Really? Nobody has had this issue before? I was hoping at least someone has dealt with this before. :(
         
        10-14-2013, 05:51 PM
      #3
    Foal
    Hi, I sent my to be hubby's colt to a young female trainer, she did an good job in little over 2 months, I could safely ride him out on trails:)

    I had 3 young uns so was busy and I didn't ride hubby's as often as I should of as I found him lazy and boring, I just rode him enough to keep him broke, I could easily jump off him anywhere and re mount without even holding the reins, he was super duper quiet and easy.

    So after a hard winter ie no riding, I ride him again, no issues, angel, I'm busy working with other young un and pony so decide to get a nearby trainer, very experienced to come work him.

    She arrives, he's in the round pen, she does some groundwork, then goes to saddle him, he goes psycho, bronco, grunting, my mouth was wide open, I'd rode him the day before, she did nothing different to what I do, she looks at me as if I'm lying that he's broke, well she declined working with him, next day I rode him, no issues even though I was nervous after watching that episode!

    Fast forward to summer I decide to try again, get another girl out, well he stood quiet for her to saddle him, a millisecond after her ass hit the saddle she was on the dirt, he went psycho again, I made the mistake of letting her continue to work him, after a month or so she could ride him but I don't know what happened but he started acting up and she let him away with it so I rode him again and he was horrid, no whoa, wouldn't stand still, pulling on the bit:(

    Anyway I told her I didn't need her anymore, in between these trainers etc I tried a few times to get my husband on him, no way, as soon as hubby got in the saddle he would go psycho and it was all I could do to safely get hubby off!

    Horse was broke at 2, he was very mature, only lightly ridden, this summer after I'd ridden him the day before and he'd been a bit of a pig but I worked through it I decided to try hubby again, lol!

    Horse is now 5, I don't know if it's as he finally matured but he just stood there, let hubby on, I led him around, quiet as a lamb, success!

    So yes, I've been through it but honestly don't know what the answer is, I swear it's like he just went oh well ok overnight!

    He was always hubby's horse, hubby cuddles him, loves on him so not like he didn't like him, none of it ever made sense to me!

    I feel your pain!
         
        10-14-2013, 05:59 PM
      #4
    Foal
    Sorry just wanted to add, I spoke to the girl who orig trained him when it happened, she said he prob just needed spun out, said some will try it on with different riders especially when they are young, she showed me, just held the inside rein super tight turning his head to your foot while mounting, then if he does go to do anything he can't do much other than spin round and round and round, I've since showed hubby how to do this just incase lol!

    She said after a couple of times doing that they usually work out the riders not a walkover and it's hard work.

    My husbands green and manages this ok sounds like your client is losing her confidence a bit, maybe some lessons on an easy horse will help her:)
         
        10-14-2013, 06:16 PM
      #5
    Weanling
    Hmm, I can feel your frustration and clients lost confidence is understandable. If what your doing is working then continue 1% improvement a day in 100 days you will have 100%. Maybe instead of walking six miles you can pony them, and have your client ride around your pony horse while your still holding the rope. I do that with my kids when they learning so they are cuing the horse but I still have control. As your aware respect is not transferable so it sounds like your client and her horse need to spend more time gaining respect. Some horses are just more one people horses and it takes time to feel safe with different people. Some people just ooze confidence and horses sense that, as well as those who don't. Your client needs to learn to ooze confidence and show her horse she is worthy of leading him.

    Sorry I don't really have any ideas, but I will mull it over and if I think of something I will post it. Good luck to you.
         
        10-14-2013, 06:16 PM
      #6
    Trained
    In the 40 years of working with horses and training them, no, I have never had a one person horse to the degree that the animal will buck others off. When I train a horse, not to just me but to be trained to saddle, period. True, some horses respond better to me than their owners as my cues are what taught them, however not to the point where they act like bronc when they don't have ME administering them. Odd, very odd, and if it doesn't make sense it means something is askew.
         
        10-14-2013, 06:37 PM
      #7
    Yearling
    Just a guess, what I would give a go anyway. If you all have time, get the owner to “re-break” the horse, basically do everything you did to the horse, but under your supervision, with you doing little but sitting on a rail offering advice. After that, when it comes to riding it out, if you have a good strong, kind of bossy, horse that won’t take crap from youngsters, you ride it out while leading the younger one with the owner on it.
    The leading out with a strong older horse is something I have done for years and if you get a good horse for leading the younger ones out, they can really keep them in line. The younger one might start o get where its place is in the pecking order too (assuming the owner can follow up on that). It can be hard to find a good horse for it though.
         
        10-14-2013, 10:43 PM
      #8
    Foal
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Pambam    
    Sorry just wanted to add, I spoke to the girl who orig trained him when it happened, she said he prob just needed spun out, said some will try it on with different riders especially when they are young, she showed me, just held the inside rein super tight turning his head to your foot while mounting, then if he does go to do anything he can't do much other than spin round and round and round, I've since showed hubby how to do this just incase lol!

    She said after a couple of times doing that they usually work out the riders not a walkover and it's hard work.

    My husbands green and manages this ok sounds like your client is losing her confidence a bit, maybe some lessons on an easy horse will help her:)
    Thank you!

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by gssw5    
    Hmm, I can feel your frustration and clients lost confidence is understandable. If what your doing is working then continue 1% improvement a day in 100 days you will have 100%. Maybe instead of walking six miles you can pony them, and have your client ride around your pony horse while your still holding the rope. I do that with my kids when they learning so they are cuing the horse but I still have control. As your aware respect is not transferable so it sounds like your client and her horse need to spend more time gaining respect. Some horses are just more one people horses and it takes time to feel safe with different people. Some people just ooze confidence and horses sense that, as well as those who don't. Your client needs to learn to ooze confidence and show her horse she is worthy of leading him.

    Sorry I don't really have any ideas, but I will mull it over and if I think of something I will post it. Good luck to you.
    Oh I would love to, but my client's heart is about to jump out of her chest just suggesting that.
    Don't misunderstand, she is a pretty decent rider. I can put her on my green horse and she is just fine with her. She is not feeling insecure on any other horse. I have taught her one rein stop. Last time the mare bolted with her she stayed on and managed to stop her. For some reason this mare scares her. I agree she needed lessons, and I have taught her a lot.
    This horse doesn't have problems with respect. She doesn't argue with her. She is very respectful on the ground and under the saddle. My client can get on safely and ride until the mare suddenly freaks out, often for no apparent reason.

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by waresbear    
    In the 40 years of working with horses and training them, no, I have never had a one person horse to the degree that the animal will buck others off. When I train a horse, not to just me but to be trained to saddle, period. True, some horses respond better to me than their owners as my cues are what taught them, however not to the point where they act like bronc when they don't have ME administering them. Odd, very odd, and if it doesn't make sense it means something is askew.
    I agree it is odd. I have trained many horses and they would all be slightly better for me than my clients until they got used their cues too. No big deal though.
    This is first time ever the horse would be making such differences.
    I had my client there from the very first lesson. Once I got the mare to understand cues for ground work I taught my client how to work with her on the ground. She has progressed a lot and is perfectly fine lunging her, even at liberty. The mare responds to her well.
    Once I started riding her, I put my client on my own horse so she could ride next to us.
    I train mainly problem horses and so far I never hit a wall. This is one is something new to me though...frustrating because she is just lovely when I'm on, so it's not an easy fix.

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by AnrewPL    
    Just a guess, what I would give a go anyway. If you all have time, get the owner to “re-break” the horse, basically do everything you did to the horse, but under your supervision, with you doing little but sitting on a rail offering advice. After that, when it comes to riding it out, if you have a good strong, kind of bossy, horse that won’t take crap from youngsters, you ride it out while leading the younger one with the owner on it.
    The leading out with a strong older horse is something I have done for years and if you get a good horse for leading the younger ones out, they can really keep them in line. The younger one might start o get where its place is in the pecking order too (assuming the owner can follow up on that). It can be hard to find a good horse for it though.
    Yes, that is a good advice. Thank you. That is how I managed to get the horse to stand still for saddling, getting on and off for her. I had the client do everything I do when I'm starting a horse. It was pretty hard on my client. She is not used to jumping around and getting on and off million times. But we got through it. We just came to the point where riding out the freak outs is necessary and my client is not up to it.
    Just to describe this mare a little more, she is not trying to do her own thing. She is not disrespectful at all. When my client gets on now she does as she is asked. And I know for sure my client is not frustrating her. Her posture is good, her hands are light, she doesn't always remember to use her legs when turning, but she is always gentle and kind. Since she got dumped she is very scared though. Yes, the mare is very sensitive and picking up on it.

    I couldn't ride other horse with her just yet. We got to the point where I walked next to them, but unhooked the lead; after the last incident she wants the lead rope back on. They both seem OK if I walk next to them holding the lead rope.

    Thanks everyone for the suggestions, it helps me to think things through.
    Still it looks like I may be stuck with leading them around. The suggestions were good, except my client is at the point where her confidence went from good to almost none. She literally told me she thought she was a good rider until she started riding here. I don't know how to build my clients confidence to where I could try out your suggestions. (Other than leading them around)
    I'm just really glad my client has always been there from the day one, or she would think I didn't train her horse at all, and am making her to do all the work.
         
        10-15-2013, 07:23 AM
      #9
    Started
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by All4Crystal    
    Imagine you get a horse for training. Would come to you halter broke, but never saddled.
    Would be wonderful to work with from the day one. The owner wants a good trail horse and you'd get her there. You'd make her soft, responsive, calm, going mainly off of seat and leg pressure, crossing anything you can think of, horse would bend backwards for you. Pleasure to ride.
    When you'd think you're done, surprise, surprise...horse bolts and bucks as soon as anyone tries to even get in the saddle. You try different, experienced, people and get the same response every time. You try to get on and the horse doesn't move a muscle.
    What do you do?

    To explain we are progressing and I think I can get her used to her owner. We are at the point where the owner can get safely on and off and somewhat ride her. For the most part I have the horse on the lead rope while the owner rides her. But it is going slow. We went on a 6 mile ride today...yes I walked next to the horse. I am so tired since I spent half a day working other horses.
    I have her trained well, except the silly mare decided to be one person horse and is very obvious about it.
    Yes I taught the owner how to do the ground work, and it has helped. My son is a trainer too, and the owner hired him to ride the mare, that has helped also. She is not anywhere close for him the way she is for me, but is not dangerous, just not very willing.
    I am trying to ride this mare as little as possible and have the owner do all the work while telling her what to do. Owner is loosing confidence, because the mare randomly bolts on her and she ended up on the ground before. It's quite a tall horse, so hitting the ground wasn't fun. (When I get on I can hang the reins on the horn, the mare becomes an angel as soon as I get in the saddle.)

    I know what we are doing works, because the mare is better and better every day. I would just like little less stress for my client.

    I'm sure we all agree there are several ways to train a horse.
    Soooo the question is what would you do? Do you have other ideas on what would work?
    Have you dealt with a situation like this before? If so how did you handle it?

    Thanks
    I'm going to be blunt here. If this is happening, and you have been working with this horse for longer than month?

    Then something is either wrong with this horse? Or you do not know what you are doing.

    And you are not progressing either, if horse bolts and bucks, and you are still having to walk out on foot with rider. Which you should not be doing anyway.

    Horse may just have something wrong mentally as in screw loose, or physically or both.

    Alternately, you may be too soft a trainer to work with a horse like this, which is actually what I think the problem is here. If you have to walk with a horse on foot while rider is up? Well, that says a lot.

    In the first place, you have no business walking horse anywhere with an inexperienced and scared rider to boot up in the saddle. Horse comes unglued and what do you think you are going to accomplish then? Not one darn thing, but get all 3 of you hurt, or killed.

    And a horse should not be so vastly different with one person to another either. Horses should also not be one person horses. All that amounts to is ego boost for owner/rider 90% of the time. The whole "I am the only one that can handle/ride this horse" makes human feel good.

    And calling yourself a trainer or your son? Well, the proof is in the pudding. Anyone can call themselves that, but does not mean they could compete against professionals where it counts. Also does not mean you know what you are doing. I see many who call themselves trainers, but they aren't.

    And I am not putting you down per se. You may do perfectly fine with horses that are more laid back. You may not. I don't know you nor have I seen horses you have turned out.

    But do know that the problems you are having are so far off course that there is something seriously wrong with what you are doing.

    The combination of this horse/owner and you and son is a recipe for disaster. It is not a matter of if...it is merely a matter of when.
    palogal likes this.
         
        10-15-2013, 07:53 AM
      #10
    Trained
    Are we sure this isn't a improper fitting tack issue?

    How big are you? (Or small, either way) How big is your son? How big is the owner.

    I'm going to question the obvious. Do you weigh less than them? They may be causing a saddle to pinch if they are heavier.

    Has this horse been checked by a vet/chiropractor/dentist to make sure he is completely sound?

    I have no advice other then checking tack/checking horse for pain.
    Posted via Mobile Device
    SammysMom likes this.
         

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