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        10-15-2013, 08:27 AM
      #11
    Yearling
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Palomine    
    I'm going to be blunt here. If this is happening, and you have been working with this horse for longer than month?

    Then something is either wrong with this horse? Or you do not know what you are doing.

    And you are not progressing either, if horse bolts and bucks, and you are still having to walk out on foot with rider. Which you should not be doing anyway.

    Horse may just have something wrong mentally as in screw loose, or physically or both.

    Alternately, you may be too soft a trainer to work with a horse like this, which is actually what I think the problem is here. If you have to walk with a horse on foot while rider is up? Well, that says a lot.

    In the first place, you have no business walking horse anywhere with an inexperienced and scared rider to boot up in the saddle. Horse comes unglued and what do you think you are going to accomplish then? Not one darn thing, but get all 3 of you hurt, or killed.

    And a horse should not be so vastly different with one person to another either. Horses should also not be one person horses. All that amounts to is ego boost for owner/rider 90% of the time. The whole "I am the only one that can handle/ride this horse" makes human feel good.

    And calling yourself a trainer or your son? Well, the proof is in the pudding. Anyone can call themselves that, but does not mean they could compete against professionals where it counts. Also does not mean you know what you are doing. I see many who call themselves trainers, but they aren't.

    And I am not putting you down per se. You may do perfectly fine with horses that are more laid back. You may not. I don't know you nor have I seen horses you have turned out.

    But do know that the problems you are having are so far off course that there is something seriously wrong with what you are doing.

    The combination of this horse/owner and you and son is a recipe for disaster. It is not a matter of if...it is merely a matter of when.


    Not to mean to be harsh or rude or anything, but I think, without being able to go ans see the situation I person, this is possibly a hasty judgement. It could be the case, however I really think there is third option. If the horse goes alright with All4Crystal and her son, then Id be looking at the owner and her nervousness issue.
    By the sounds of All4Crystal's last post its sounding to me that the owner might not be ready for a green horse and could be loosing her confidence, was probably a bit too over confident taking it on in the first place. Getting dumped sounds like it has really brought her down to earth (pun intended) and shattered her confidence. If this is the case a green horse might either take advantage of it and play up, or feed off her nervousness and end up playing up due to that.
    anndankev likes this.
         
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        10-15-2013, 08:46 AM
      #12
    Foal
    To quote Palomine-And a horse should not be so vastly different with one person to another either. Horses should also not be one person horses. All that amounts to is ego boost for owner/rider 90% of the time. The whole "I am the only one that can handle/ride this horse" makes human feel good.

    Disagree, I hated riding hubby's horse, was not an ego boost to me, I have no idea why he was like this, there are odd horses out there like this, just because you haven't met or worked with one yet don't blast the OP
         
        10-15-2013, 02:09 PM
      #13
    Green Broke
    I sold a horse for my BO this summer. I bought him as a 6 year old and did all the ground work. Dominant type, but no real issues. My BO bought him off me because her husband loved him, sent him for 60 days. He did great, nothing out of the ordinary, came back good w/t/c, soft mouth, moving off the bit, moving off leg, trail riding. Put a good summer of riding on him as a 7 year old, a tiny bit of buck/crow hopping after some time off in the first few months, getting back into a canter, to be expected, overall no issues. Went to the mountains in the fall, exceeded expectations with the BO's husband aboard.

    Early the next spring the BO put a girl on him, she was in her late teens, spent lots of time in the saddle, was maybe an intermediate rider but heavy, he was one of the only horses of the right size for her that was quiet. We get maybe a minute into the ride and the girl starts getting tense and screaming at her dog, horse promptly bucks her off. We were shocked. She got back on and finished the ride. My BO, me, my cousin, another teenaged girl, and another boarder road him all summer. All were confident, fairly experienced riders. Didn't have a problem at all, he was great in all weather, at all speeds, alone or with others, even after a month off. Never offered to buck.

    Fast forward to this spring. Bo had a rider on another horse while she was riding the gelding. The gelding was behaving, and was super quiet. The other horse was misbehaving, so she switched horses. As soon as the less experienced rider sat down, the horse spun, jumped up the hill and bucked the rider off. BO got back on him an gave him a serious work out, but he didn't try anything. We kept riding him and could get him to act up, even in very tense situations, so we concluded it was just an issue with beginners/ nervous/timid riders. At this point the BO's husband was riding infrequently, and they wanted a horse that could double as a beginner friendly horse for guests, so she decided to sell him. I advertised him as a horse for a confident, experienced rider, and explained to potential buyers that he bucked with tense/nervous riders. A lady bought him, he rode well for her twice, and her friend rode him with no issues w/t/c

    Two months later, get a call, he started bucking on his owner, and bucked her daughter off. Of course we both felt terrible, but neither of us were in a position to buy him back, so could do nothing but apologise profusely that it didn't work out.

    Some horses can't take certain riders. I had a filly that was the same, just hated my cousin for no reason, but rode perfectly for me.

    OP, I think the owner needs to either get confident enough at a one rein stop to ride solo, or have you sell the horse.
    Cherie and AnrewPL like this.
         
        10-15-2013, 04:59 PM
      #14
    Foal
    Palomine, I am not going to reply to you, because I am not sure if I could do it without insulting you.
    Just please go back and read again what I wrote.

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by CLaPorte432    
    Are we sure this isn't a improper fitting tack issue?

    How big are you? (Or small, either way) How big is your son? How big is the owner.

    I'm going to question the obvious. Do you weigh less than them? They may be causing a saddle to pinch if they are heavier.

    Has this horse been checked by a vet/chiropractor/dentist to make sure he is completely sound?

    I have no advice other then checking tack/checking horse for pain.
    Posted via Mobile Device
    Thank you. I am pretty sure this is not tack/pain related since she would bolt and buck when someone just put a foot in the stirrup, without even putting the weight on.
    We are past this point. Working with other riders really helped.
    It is possible to get on and off safely now.
    I think this mare just has trust issues. When she freaks out she is not being disrespectful. She is super jumpy and acting scared. You can see the white of her eyes. Of course it doesn't help her rider is scared too.

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by BlueSpark    
    I sold a horse for my BO this summer. I bought him as a 6 year old and did all the ground work. Dominant type, but no real issues. My BO bought him off me because her husband loved him, sent him for 60 days. He did great, nothing out of the ordinary, came back good w/t/c, soft mouth, moving off the bit, moving off leg, trail riding. Put a good summer of riding on him as a 7 year old, a tiny bit of buck/crow hopping after some time off in the first few months, getting back into a canter, to be expected, overall no issues. Went to the mountains in the fall, exceeded expectations with the BO's husband aboard.

    Early the next spring the BO put a girl on him, she was in her late teens, spent lots of time in the saddle, was maybe an intermediate rider but heavy, he was one of the only horses of the right size for her that was quiet. We get maybe a minute into the ride and the girl starts getting tense and screaming at her dog, horse promptly bucks her off. We were shocked. She got back on and finished the ride. My BO, me, my cousin, another teenaged girl, and another boarder road him all summer. All were confident, fairly experienced riders. Didn't have a problem at all, he was great in all weather, at all speeds, alone or with others, even after a month off. Never offered to buck.

    Fast forward to this spring. Bo had a rider on another horse while she was riding the gelding. The gelding was behaving, and was super quiet. The other horse was misbehaving, so she switched horses. As soon as the less experienced rider sat down, the horse spun, jumped up the hill and bucked the rider off. BO got back on him an gave him a serious work out, but he didn't try anything. We kept riding him and could get him to act up, even in very tense situations, so we concluded it was just an issue with beginners/ nervous/timid riders. At this point the BO's husband was riding infrequently, and they wanted a horse that could double as a beginner friendly horse for guests, so she decided to sell him. I advertised him as a horse for a confident, experienced rider, and explained to potential buyers that he bucked with tense/nervous riders. A lady bought him, he rode well for her twice, and her friend rode him with no issues w/t/c

    Two months later, get a call, he started bucking on his owner, and bucked her daughter off. Of course we both felt terrible, but neither of us were in a position to buy him back, so could do nothing but apologise profusely that it didn't work out.

    Some horses can't take certain riders. I had a filly that was the same, just hated my cousin for no reason, but rode perfectly for me.

    OP, I think the owner needs to either get confident enough at a one rein stop to ride solo, or have you sell the horse.
    You know what? I think this is the best advice so far; this is something I can actually work with. My client knows how to do one rein stop. But I pretty much have to yell at her to use it, when she needs to. It is not automatic, therefore still really stressful for her. Stressed out rider on stressed out horse will not calm anyone down.
    I am going to spend several lessons just working on the one rein stop until it will become an automatic reaction. Having a control over the mare should bring her confidence up, which in turn should help the mare to calm down. Thank you so much. I knew discussing it with others may help. :)
         
        10-15-2013, 08:14 PM
      #15
    Yearling
    There is something else going on here. In over 20 years I have never had this problem and I have trained almost all breeds and most ages of horses. If this woman has to ride on a lead rope, this is not the right mount for her to trail ride with. He has a whole in his training if he feels it's acceptable to bolt and buck under saddle with anyone.
         
        10-15-2013, 09:46 PM
      #16
    Yearling
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by BlueSpark    
    I sold a horse for my BO this summer. I bought him as a 6 year old and did all the ground work. Dominant type, but no real issues. My BO bought him off me because her husband loved him, sent him for 60 days. He did great, nothing out of the ordinary, came back good w/t/c, soft mouth, moving off the bit, moving off leg, trail riding. Put a good summer of riding on him as a 7 year old, a tiny bit of buck/crow hopping after some time off in the first few months, getting back into a canter, to be expected, overall no issues. Went to the mountains in the fall, exceeded expectations with the BO's husband aboard.

    Early the next spring the BO put a girl on him, she was in her late teens, spent lots of time in the saddle, was maybe an intermediate rider but heavy, he was one of the only horses of the right size for her that was quiet. We get maybe a minute into the ride and the girl starts getting tense and screaming at her dog, horse promptly bucks her off. We were shocked. She got back on and finished the ride. My BO, me, my cousin, another teenaged girl, and another boarder road him all summer. All were confident, fairly experienced riders. Didn't have a problem at all, he was great in all weather, at all speeds, alone or with others, even after a month off. Never offered to buck.

    Fast forward to this spring. Bo had a rider on another horse while she was riding the gelding. The gelding was behaving, and was super quiet. The other horse was misbehaving, so she switched horses. As soon as the less experienced rider sat down, the horse spun, jumped up the hill and bucked the rider off. BO got back on him an gave him a serious work out, but he didn't try anything. We kept riding him and could get him to act up, even in very tense situations, so we concluded it was just an issue with beginners/ nervous/timid riders. At this point the BO's husband was riding infrequently, and they wanted a horse that could double as a beginner friendly horse for guests, so she decided to sell him. I advertised him as a horse for a confident, experienced rider, and explained to potential buyers that he bucked with tense/nervous riders. A lady bought him, he rode well for her twice, and her friend rode him with no issues w/t/c

    Two months later, get a call, he started bucking on his owner, and bucked her daughter off. Of course we both felt terrible, but neither of us were in a position to buy him back, so could do nothing but apologise profusely that it didn't work out.

    Some horses can't take certain riders. I had a filly that was the same, just hated my cousin for no reason, but rode perfectly for me.

    OP, I think the owner needs to either get confident enough at a one rein stop to ride solo, or have you sell the horse.
    Y’know, this reminds me of a horse that my uncle had when I was a kid. This great big old thoroughbred ex-racehorse. He would have been close to 18 hands (but then I was only about 6 or 7, so he seemed huge anyway). All of us kids rode him and he was usually the first real horse we rode out mustering cattle, once we got good enough to ride something bigger than a pony. He was dead quiet, would have been about 20 years old. We would even ride him into a dam, park him up to his belly in water and use him as a diving platform, climb up onto him by the tail, swing of his neck; he was the most good natured and quiet horse I have ever seen.
    When I was about 13 years old and going to boarding school my cousins and me would often go home when my uncle needed help mustering, and this one time our manual arts teacher came to help. He had never ridden a horse before, so he got to ride this old racehorse, since he was so quiet. We were getting ready to go, and the teacher was told to just walk around the yard on this horse a bit to get a feel for it. No sooner than the horse started moving he started to buck and threw the teacher. I think he just couldn’t stand how stiff and nervous the teacher was. The teacher managed to stay on for about three bucks, but with each buck you could see an increasing amount of daylight between his backside and the saddle he was so stiff he was bouncing out of the saddle.
    We were stunned that the horse bucked, the teacher thought everyone was playing a joke on him, but that old horse, for some reason, just couldn’t stand having him on there. I’m thinking it was the nervousness.
         
        10-15-2013, 10:15 PM
      #17
    Green Broke
    To those who say a properly trained horse should accept all riders; well, that's a great theory. I might have bought into it myself, if I hadn't known the two horses mentioned above. Regarding the filly, I did all the ground work and she was smart as a whip, and very willing. I had her at the point where she was ready to have a rider astride, so I asked my cousin to get on while I led her. She was a very experienced rider. That horse walked about two strides before she tucked her head between her knees and went to bucking. The next day I worked my self up and went out to ride her out, whatever she threw at me. Well she walked off like she had been riding all her life. Rode all over the property. She never did buck with me, but to the day I sold her she had it out for my cousin.

    Some horses don't deal well with certain types of riders, just like some riders hate riding certain types of horses. Goes both ways
    Posted via Mobile Device
         
        10-16-2013, 12:17 AM
      #18
    Green Broke
    Once my friend had a horse they were bringing along. They offered me to ride and work with it then get a cut of the profits when they sold it. The rider got her out, rode her first and everything. I went to get on and I just sat in the saddle for just a second, and she took off bucking for no apparent reason. Threw me off rather quickly and then bolted off bucking.

    They ended up retiring her as a broodmare, I think she wasn't great with other riders as well.

    She's the only horse I've known to be like that, okay with one person and terrible with others. I don't have answers, but as you know each time the owner rides and lets her play up the horse is learning she can and the owner in getting more scared - recipe for disaster.
         
        10-16-2013, 08:06 AM
      #19
    Yearling
    It sounds to me like this relationship is just not going to work. Nervous hot horses and riders who have gotten the fear is not a good combination. A friend of mine has recently put a horse up for sale -- he would bolt with her but was an angel for a couple pro showjumpers who sat on him -- and bought something a lot quieter. Her big Irish Draft is being marketed as a hunter for an experienced rider -- he needs a hard job and someone who won't take his BS. That's the type of horse he is.

    It sucks, as a trainer, feeling like you are in a position where you may need to advise someone that they have an inappropriate horse for their skill level, temperament, or riding style, and it's not possible to turn their sharp, spooky nutball horse into a beginner-safe plod in a relatively short time frame.
         
        10-16-2013, 08:45 AM
      #20
    Weanling
    I think some of the others here have it right, too much horse and not enough rider (not you, the owner). It is not unusual for young horses to take advantage of frightened/timid riders. This horse needs a firm hand, like the one you provide. It may be time to suggest she gets a different horse.
         

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