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Rearing?!? Circus?!?

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        08-25-2009, 07:51 PM
      #21
    Weanling
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by JustDressageIt    
    I agree, Kelly! What about "smile" or even "bow" or "fetch"? I will look at a horse that bows, smiles or fetches and go "wow great training" before I will ever commend rearing.

    Except perhaps with a mini haha
    those are much more manageable tricks. And their just as fun to watch as a rear.
         
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        08-25-2009, 08:06 PM
      #22
    Showing
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Zab    
    I swear, somewhere in the world there is people shaking their heads and saying "they teach their horses to jump? That can't be good! Someday it will decide not to stay in the pasture and jump out! Or what if the horse decides to jump over random things when they ride?"

    There's a lot of bad habits with horses. Some horses will run off with you.. does that stop you from teaching them a canter cue? Some horses will stop and refuse to go..do you refuse to teach them a halt then? Some will start backing, so you better not teach them that.

    There was a time when it was very common to teach riding horses to rear, jump off the ground, kick etc. Those horses didn't do it ''because they wanted to get out of work''. Just like any horse that know how to canter won't take off just because it get's annoyed. Those who does would have done it anyway. It's natural for them.

    And those that are trained poorly (think of small ponies trained by kids without proper guidance) they often have bad habits, not because trhe kids taught them things, but because they thaught it in a bad way.

    It's much better to spread the safe way to teach things, than letting those who wants to do it, experiment on their own. Because they will.
    We obviously have different views and likely different methods of training, and we are indeed in different parts of the world which I think will differ from the American way of thinking.Having said that it was a great post and I agree with a lot of things you said.

    A lot of the things we teach horses, are things that have no other way around it. You will have to teach your horse those canter cues to be able to ride, you will have to teach him to pick up his feet for foot care etc etc BUT teaching a horse to rear IS NOT a skill your horse requires.

    You would not be teaching your dog to dog fight because it's a "neat trick", or as in some people for an income. It can turn into(and usually does) a behavior problem that can become very dangerous even in most benign and settled settings.

    There are so many things out there that would would be so much safer, why not experiment with those instead of those ones that have much higher odds of hurting or killing someone?

    Cheers
         
        08-25-2009, 08:20 PM
      #23
    Trained
    Quote:
    There's a lot of bad habits with horses. Some horses will run off with you.. does that stop you from teaching them a canter cue? Some horses will stop and refuse to go..do you refuse to teach them a halt then? Some will start backing, so you better not teach them that.
    There are plenty of horses who use bolting/backing up/stopping as a way to avoid pressure. The key id that these are things that can be managed relatively easily by most people. Rearing is a different story. It is dangerous to horse and rider alike.
         
        08-26-2009, 01:26 AM
      #24
    Showing
    Zab, we have had this discussion many times.

    Rearing, when the average Joe teaches it, is in an unbalanced manner that is easily ruined; it is so easy for a horse to rear too close to someone on the ground or flip over while a rider is on board.

    It is NOT safe for the average rider to attempt.

    But hey it's your life, I just hope I don't accidentally buy a "kid safe" horse for my school one day that has been trained by someone to rear and it manifests itself one day while a beginner is riding.
         
        08-26-2009, 02:18 PM
      #25
    Zab
    Yearling
    Jusdressageit; yes we have, so why start it over? You've said yourt point of view, I'm not allowed to say mine?

    I hope you do buy a kid safe rearer, that way you might notice that horses that learnt a cue for rearing doesn't necessary do it for the least reason or protest. I have ridden lots of safe rearing horses, none of them rears without a command. No matter how stressful the situation.
         
        08-26-2009, 02:26 PM
      #26
    Zab
    Yearling
    My2geldings: You don't have to ride at all, and you can ride in just walk and trot. Gatininfg people ride in just walk and gait, so why not? You don't have to teach a horse jumping either but nobod frowns at that.. the reason ''it's not necessary'' is probably the lousiest one of all.
    ______________
    Teaching the horse to rear, with a good method, is not more dangerous than riding generally is. To teach it to rear by stressing/annoying it to rear as a protest, like many who try it does, is not a good method as that enforces rearing as a good way to protest to things. Asking the horse to rear by letting it know what you want, without annoying it, doesn't trigger that at all. Just like calmly asking for canter doesn't trigger the flight response, while scaring the horse to cantr does - and makes it easier for the horse to run as soon as it's dcared or hear something.

    "the average Joe'' shouldn't train a horse at all, without good help. With no experience on a cantering horse and how to canter, you don't teach a gren horse to do it. With no experience on a rearing horse and how to sit and prevent it, you don't teach a horse to rear. It goes for everything.
    ________________________
    Oh, JDI one more thing; One of the rearing horses was taught the wrong way and couldn't back up on cue anymore, but she still never reared without getting the cue (which was the same for backing). And no, the owners never sold her butkept her for the rest of her life. She was at a ridingschool for kids most of the time tho, but as the teachers knew about her ''problem'' they didn't have her in lessons that included backing. She newver once reared dangerously or hurt the kids, I don't even think she reared with them when they asked her too behind the teachers back.
         
        08-26-2009, 02:41 PM
      #27
    Showing
    I consider a horse that you cannot ask to back up without it rearing a dangerous horse, and one I would want re-trained by a professional pronto. A horse that cannot back is... well... not very useful.
    Jumping is NOT dangerous. The horse can't jump without a fence in front of it. The horse usually doesn't jump to get out of work. Once a horse figures out that rearing scares riders and rearing = less work, they latch on to that pretty **** quick.
    If a horse jumped a jump to .. uh.. get out of work, I would snatch that horse up in a second.
    I don't understand how you can compare jumping to rearing. One is an undesired dangerous habit, NOT a discipline, and the other is a desired discipline.
    Rearing, especially one that's been taught with an improper cue, is very VERY hard to un-train. It CAN and DOES become dangerous, I don't care who you are.
    By the average Joe, I mean most riders on this board. They can w/t/c and jump little fences safely, it's not like they're super green. But ask them to teach a horse to rear and chances are they'd do it wrong. 99% of people on this board would say "pull back on the reins and kick." And you're right, if you're strong enough in your hands to annoy the horse enough to rear, then you've done it.
    Many people don't know how to cue it any other way.
    Zab, how did you train it? What is your cue? Has your horse EVER used the rear when you don't want him to?
         
        08-26-2009, 03:07 PM
      #28
    Zab
    Yearling
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by JustDressageIt    
    I consider a horse that you cannot ask to back up without it rearing a dangerous horse, and one I would want re-trained by a professional pronto. A horse that cannot back is... well... not very useful.
    Jumping is NOT dangerous. The horse can't jump without a fence in front of it. The horse usually doesn't jump to get out of work. Once a horse figures out that rearing scares riders and rearing = less work, they latch on to that pretty **** quick.
    If a horse jumped a jump to .. uh.. get out of work, I would snatch that horse up in a second.
    I don't understand how you can compare jumping to rearing. One is an undesired dangerous habit, NOT a discipline, and the other is a desired discipline.
    Rearing, especially one that's been taught with an improper cue, is very VERY hard to un-train. It CAN and DOES become dangerous, I don't care who you are.
    By the average Joe, I mean most riders on this board. They can w/t/c and jump little fences safely, it's not like they're super green. But ask them to teach a horse to rear and chances are they'd do it wrong. 99% of people on this board would say "pull back on the reins and kick." And you're right, if you're strong enough in your hands to annoy the horse enough to rear, then you've done it.
    Many people don't know how to cue it any other way.
    Zab, how did you train it? What is your cue? Has your horse EVER used the rear when you don't want him to?
    It wasn't a successful training to that hore no, since it couldn'rt bavck. But it was never dangerous. (It never, ever reared hiigh to even be the least dangerous for one, and it didn't rear at all when the kids tried to make it rear 'to be cool'. It was a stubborn horse and needed really strong cues to do it, she just stood still if you asked her to back.)

    Jumping isn't undangerous, and rearing can be desired or else people wouldnä't teach it. Some diciplines, like academic dressage, does have rearing included, along with lots of way more dangerous moves. Circus acts have rearing horses etc. Point is, lots of people do teach their horses to rear and never have a problem with it. The people having problems with it are the ones who doesn't know how to do it correctly. Which is partly because it's so ''forbidden'' and impossible to get good information about.
    Most people on this board is super green - when it comes to rearing. What they know about other things doesn't really matter.

    I never taught Crow to rear from the saddle, because I realized I didn't have a safe enough cue and I have more things to work on first. I have however ridden other horses that was trained - I'm not sure exactly how, but from the ground first and in a dressage-manner of levade-ish rearing- and they did it usually by squeesing the legs, tip your pelvis, lift the rein a little and give the command with voice and/or leg.

    I have however taught Crow to rear from the ground, the cue is to raise my arms in the air and say ''up'' sharply. He has never reared on me when leading him or in other circumstanses, no matter the situation. He has however reared as a protest/question during riding when he was still very green, but not in the same manner as when asked from the ground and I am positive that those two times had nothing to do with his rearing-from-ground training. The situations wasn't alike, and he has never done it as a protest otherwise. And well. It's just not the sae thing. Except those two times, he has never done it when not asked.
         
        08-26-2009, 03:34 PM
      #29
    Showing
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Zab    
    It wasn't a successful training to that hore no, since it couldn'rt bavck. But it was never dangerous. (It never, ever reared hiigh to even be the least dangerous for one, and it didn't rear at all when the kids tried to make it rear 'to be cool'. It was a stubborn horse and needed really strong cues to do it, she just stood still if you asked her to back.)
    This horse was never successfully untrained out of the rear then. Rearing, when a person doesn't know how to deal with it is dangerous. You say this horse was a school horse. What if a kid accidentally cued her to rear (or... back as you said) and the horse reared, kid freaks out and clings on to reins and the horse's belly, horse gets frustrated with this contact and pressure, and goes higher ... and higher...
    It is SO easy for rearing to become very dangerous.

    Jumping isn't undangerous,No, but a horse won't just jump out of the blue. They have to be pointed to a jump and ridden towards it. If a horse wants to rear to get out of work or intimidate a person or even just show that they're peeved that day, they can be at a standstill and still rear up and flip over Jumping comes with known risks, but they are easily managed by smart training. and rearing can be desired or else people wouldnä't teach it. Rearing, 99% of the time is undesired behavior. Or a behavior that a child has "taught" the horse because her friends think it's cool. Some diciplines, like academic dressage, does have rearing included, No, it is the Levade, and not comparable to a rear at all unless you count the horse's front legs being off the ground. The levade is ultimate collection. The horse is on the ground, it gathers itself on its hind legs, and literally pulls its front end up using its back and stomach muscles. The front legs are tucked in and the horse never truly rears. It is extreme, and extremely hard to teach. Even amongst the Vienna stallions, only a small percentage of them do the Levade. Only the extremely sane athletic stallions do the levade. I have not seen a single person post on here a true levade with their horses along with lots of way more dangerous moves. Again, not comparable. These horses are trained for YEARS to become collected enough to even attempt to do these advanced manouvers. Only certain horses get chosen (yes, CHOSEN) to learn the capriole and other movements. They must be sane and athletic. Not your average horse. Circus acts have rearing horses etc. Don't even get me started there!! Point is, lots of people do teach their horses to rear and never have a problem with it. Really? Then why are there so many problem rearers out there?? The people having problems with it are the ones who doesn't know how to do it correctly. Agreed, and 99% of the people that teach their beloved horses to rear do it incorrectly and end up with a dangerous horse, that end up on these forums asking for help. Or they just send the horse away "to another farm". Which is partly because it's so ''forbidden'' and impossible to get good information about. Not really, they just don't want to educate themselves. There is a reason it's "taboo" - just like there is a reason for stoplights when driving.
    Most people on this board is super green - when it comes to rearing. What they know about other things doesn't really matter. How does it not matter? If an accomplished horseperson has never dealt with a rearer, and wants to untrain it, they just have to apply the same principles that they worked with before.

    I never taught Crow to rear from the saddle, because I realized I didn't have a safe enough cue and I have more things to work on first. I have however ridden other horses that was trained - I'm not sure exactly how, but from the ground first and in a dressage-manner of levade-ish rearing- and they did it usually by squeesing the legs, tip your pelvis, lift the rein a little and give the command with voice and/or leg. Sounds confusing.

    I have however taught Crow to rear from the ground, the cue is to raise my arms in the air and say ''up'' sharply. He has never reared on me when leading him or in other circumstanses, no matter the situation. He has however reared as a protest/question during riding when he was still very green, but not in the same manner as when asked from the ground and I am positive that those two times had nothing to do with his rearing-from-ground training. What, really?? He reared in protest and you don't think it was at all connected to rearing on the ground? How can you make such an assumption? You taught him to rear, period. He reared when it was not desired, period. He reared in protest, period.
    The situations wasn't alike, and he has never done it as a protest otherwise. And well. It's just not the sae thing. Except those two times, he has never done it when not asked. I suppose since it has never happened... oh except for those few times... yeah, it will never happen again and it's always under control... except for those few times. There's always an "except." It only takes one "except" for him to hurt you. This is why I don't condone rearing.
    My responses above in bold and blue.
         
        08-26-2009, 03:39 PM
      #30
    Showing
    Ridiculous

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Zab    
    You don't have to teach a horse jumping either but nobod frowns at that.. the reason ''it's not necessary'' is probably the lousiest one of all.
    What's lousy, is you comparing a riding discipline with a dangerous trick that serves no purpose.

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Zab    
    To teach it to rear by stressing/annoying it to rear as a protest, like many who try it does, is not a good method as that enforces rearing as a good way to protest to things.
    So I guess you can change animal instinct and behavior? I NEED YOUR NUMBER! You realize you could make millions $$$$. Had I ever known all it took was to tell my horse he's not allowed to rear, oh dear I would have saved myself injuries.





    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Zab    
    Asking the horse to rear by letting it know what you want, without annoying it, doesn't trigger that at all.
    Obviously not...see the above videos.


    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Zab    
    "the average Joe'' shouldn't train a horse at all, without good help. With no experience on a cantering horse and how to canter, you don't teach a gren horse to do it.
    You CANNOT compare horse back riding with a trick that serves no purpose.

    By teaching a horse to rear as a "trick", you teach them it's ok to do it. We have taught horses to go against their natural instinct to rear (normally used to show pain, aggression, frustration, excess energy etc etc in the wild)to make it safer for us. Once you show an animal that yes, go ahead and do "but only when I do this gesture" is ridiculous. A horse is a horse. If they feel they need to, now that you have crossed that carrier, they will go back to what they know which is rear to express what it is they are feeling.

    Might I add, that you've just said yourself, that your horse has reared out of protest "only twice"...way to go!

    I don't know what they do in your country, but here on the American continent(not saying that you do), but we don't raise circus horses. We train athletes that are conditioned and are expected to behave not teach them useless tricks.
         

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