Respect to the leg?
 
 

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Respect to the leg?

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  • Dead sided horse
  • Horse to respect leg

 
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    06-19-2010, 11:17 PM
  #1
Showing
Respect to the leg?

How you'd deal with the dead-sided horse to teach it to respect the leg? I mean, OK you start with squeeze, and then if horse doesn't respond use a whip behind the leg. But I know some horses just don't care about it. And in my understanding spurs should not be used for such training (although I have zero experience with spurs, so can't tell for sure). So then.... how?
     
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    06-19-2010, 11:21 PM
  #2
Yearling
If they didn't respond to either (although I use the crop on the hind, not behind my leg) I'd hold my reins in one hand and give them a tap on the hind with an arm reaching back holding the whip. If they still weren't responding I'd assume that something's wrong with their health, they've been overworked or are sour, or they have a very serious ingrained training issue.
     
    06-19-2010, 11:25 PM
  #3
Banned
Quote:
Originally Posted by roro    
If they didn't respond to either (although I use the crop on the hind, not behind my leg) I'd hold my reins in one hand and give them a tap on the hind with an arm reaching back holding the whip. If they still weren't responding I'd assume that something's wrong with their health, they've been overworked or are sour, or they have a very serious ingrained training issue.
We have a little welsh pony who is SO STUBBORN, you can, no joke (his owner has done it before numerous times) take an actual lunge whip and have someone else pop him in the butt with it (after waving it and cracking it of course) and he still just stands there. His eight year old rider is a very good one, he's just a snobby spoiled brat.

Plastic bags and pom poms seem to get him moving pretty good though.
     
    06-20-2010, 12:28 AM
  #4
Trained
When I worked with Dorothy Crowell at a Clinic I rode under her this Fall, she worked on this with us.

You first ask the hair, then you ask the skin, then you ask the ribs and if there is no response, you lift your legs up and slam your horses side as hard as you can.

The moment they move forward, you bring them back to a halt and you start again.

You ask the hair, you ask the skin, you ask the ribs and WHAMO again if you don't get a response.

The moment your horse moves forward after asking with the "Bad Leg" you bring them back to a halt and start again.

The moment your horse responds to your "Good Leg" meaning when your horse resonds to you asking the hair lightly, you praise, praise and praise.

Repeat process until you have your horse responding to your "Good Leg"
     
    06-20-2010, 10:12 AM
  #5
Weanling
I have known several horses that you could give some hard kicks to and they have no problem sucking it up and staying there anyway. I also know some that will sit there as they are getting popped with the whip and it doesn't even phase them.

I personally have no problems using spurs on a horse that has become dead sided over time, however I would never encourage anyone to do so without knowing how to use spurs. Some people can wear spurs on a horse, use, pull away, or use forward cues without ever using the spur, in which case a spur can be useful on a horse like this since you can use the leg first, and then spur as a reinforcement to the aid similar to a whip.

I like to think about horses like this in their patterns. Gradually over time, that horse has learned to tolerate more and more pressure, so I want to reverse that. Consistency is very important, as well as the will to not give up. I personally will reward every effort forward by a horse that has "no go". Every step forward will be rewarded, not by cookies, but by stopping all pressure. This is sometimes easier to teach by whip on the ground, since the cue can then be transferred to the saddle. If you are consistent in your timing, release, pressure increases, and rewards, then the horse figures out very quickly that its much easier to move off the touch of the leg than it is to wait for the harder pressure that is sure to come. I won't lie, I've sat with the same horse for 20 minutes to get one forward step, which is where the will has to come in. Get a good drink ahead of time, and have it set in your mind that you are not stopping what you are doing until that horse takes a step forward. Your persistance and attention proves a lot more to the horse than you are more stubborn than they are. That same horse I spent 20 minutes with the first time now moves forward off the lightest touch or voice command. You don't have to beat the snot out of them, simply out last them. The longer the horse has been able to get away with not respecting forward aids, the longer it takes to get them to move.
     
    06-20-2010, 10:56 AM
  #6
Yearling
I have never used the word "Respect" and legs in the same sentence before and just have no idea how it is even related to that reference at all.

There are two general kinds of handlers/trainers/riders that I have come across in my 50 odd years of horse work.

1. Horses and generally lazy and stubborn at times,will not comply with commands unless made to do so and must be forced,corroced,dominated,or wrangled into the action that is needed.

OR

2.A horse is generally willing to comply with most reasonable request that are explained and that the horse understands and looks forward or enjoys that work as well as new things if they are presented in a way that the horse can process the new environment.

I always look for the joy within the horse and build on that to help the horse find the fun in having a work ethic.
But then again I have never met your horse.
     
    06-20-2010, 01:34 PM
  #7
Yearling
The first thing that comes to mind is there's a physical 'block' somewhere.

If that's definitely not "it"... then it's very possible that this horse has learned to 'hide' when it feels things are too tough.

I've met examples of both. One of my mares will stop dead and do nothing, even if you kick her, if you don't lift your seat and open your shoulders. She will simply get 'higher' and higher with her head and shoulders - and I assume, eventually, would rear. (It's never been carried that far because as her head comes up I recognize this as her way of saying "I have nowhere TO go"). When she does this it's obvious to anyone watching (or riding for that matter) that she's still "present" in mind.

I had a gelding awhile back here who would so something similar.. but for a different reason. He was "quiet"... but not quiet (he'd take 'so' much then absolutely lose it). When he didn't understand something he'd just "do nothing", you could probably have beaten the bejeezus out of him and he'd still have done "nothing". This was a result of poor training methods before I bought him. She (the trainer) had done everything to death... the sacking out process especially. He learned that in order to avoid whatever she was doing he needed to 'go away', when he did so he wouldn't respond to anything at all, because his mind wasn't present and he wasn't processing. When you'd look at this horse you'd see nothing but tension - a locked jaw, his ears held stiff, his eye blank, tail down. When he understood what was wanted of him he was very willing to do so.

So, the solution... first would be to determine 'why' your horse is locking up. Then proceeding to correct it by showing the horse the easiest way out by presenting it in an appealing manner.

If you have a horse who is "locking down" you're going to have to make sure, first, that the horse never mentally disappears - you can't teach a horse something if it's not able to process. Usually this means going back a bit in training to re-teach subtle cues.
     
    06-20-2010, 03:26 PM
  #8
Showing
Quote:
Originally Posted by MIEventer    
You first ask the hair, then you ask the skin, then you ask the ribs and if there is no response, you lift your legs up and slam your horses side as hard as you can.
MIEventer, isn't it the biggest "no-no" of the correct training? At least from what I was always told.
     
    06-20-2010, 10:46 PM
  #9
Trained
Quote:
MIEventer, isn't it the biggest "no-no" of the correct training? At least from what I was always told.
I've never heard that before? This was shown to me by a 4* Olympic Eventer who knows the importancies of having your horse respond to your "Good Leg" especially when you are out on that CC course. Maybe ask the Olympic Eventer yourself and see what she says.

Works. I would rather have my horse respond to my "good leg" by working with him to learn to "respect" it - than turning to whips and spurs.

She got on my horse and she only had to use her "bad legs" once, Nelson picked up on it quickly and now I have a horse that I can get infront of my leg when I ask.
     
    06-20-2010, 11:19 PM
  #10
Trained
^^ I really don't think that sounds like a good idea...i personally never like to comprimize my position that drastically.

I use soft leg, medium leg, hard leg, cluck, & the crop behind my leg until they run. Sometimes if they are really horrible about moving off the leg I will walk them around on foot & then get on & immediately cluck & then crop until they gallop.
     

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