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Retraining a 'spur trained' horse?

This is a discussion on Retraining a 'spur trained' horse? within the Horse Training forums, part of the Training Horses category
  • Should hunter jumper horse have constant contact as in rollcur
  • Retraining a spur stop

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    11-05-2012, 10:38 PM
  #11
Foal
I said I wouldn't put a curb bit on my horse just because someone told me to.

Why don't you think this horse is for me? And I've already asked the owner if she's okay with me putting a snaffle on him and she's fine with it. Now that you point this out, I'm going to have that written into the lease if I decide to take him.
     
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    11-05-2012, 10:39 PM
  #12
Foal
The woman who trained this horse before the current owner bought him owns a WP pleasure Appendix who has don't national level jumper and is on her way to Grand Prix.
     
    11-05-2012, 10:39 PM
  #13
Banned
Ok.....but we are now talking two different disciplines....if I were you I'd get a horse trained for hunter/jumper who works in a snaffle......and just of note, keeping your hands really still is a good thing on a western trained horse, and without that constant contact up front a western rider gets a really strong seat and legs.....I can't speak much for Dressage, as it has been many years for me, but I sure as heck know that some of those dressage folk can crack coconuts with their thighs!
     
    11-05-2012, 10:41 PM
  #14
Showing
Quote:
Originally Posted by OTTB    
My issue with curbs is that I don't like them and the hunter/jumper trainers that have gone national level and have either owned or currently own Grand Prix horses all use the most mild snaffle that they can get away with on their horses. They have encouraged me to do the same, and I figure if they can get to the places they've gone using the gear they use, I should follow their advice until it doesn't work.
Curbs are required for Western competition in horses older than five. They're a great tool for refinement on horses that respond well to seat and leg cues. I have my Arabian reiner in a medium-port correction bit and have no problem whatsoever with curbs. They should not be used with constant contact, that much is true, but to discount all curbs because you don't like them is a bit absurd.
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    11-05-2012, 10:43 PM
  #15
Green Broke
When I look for a horse to lease, I'm looking for a horse that I'm interested in purchasing after a time or one that is already trained for the disclipine I'm interested in. What's the point in retraining someone else's horse while you pay them? If I wanted to retrain a horse, I'd just buy my own or offer training for so much a day/month for a horse they don't know how to retrain.
If you're okay with the fact that you'll most likely be retraining a horse and paying to do so, then go ahead and start leasing. I'm not okay with that, and never again will I pay someone to train their horse just for them to decide they want it back because they can finally ride it now without flying off and hitting the ground.
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    11-05-2012, 10:51 PM
  #16
Green Broke
I don't think this horse is right for you. This horse sounds like an advanced western horse. Which is on the other end of the spectrum for what you want. Why not look for a horse that is trained for what you want?

If you don't want to put a curb in your horse's mouth then good for you. Don't show WP then. If the horse has been worked in a curb have fun putting a snaffle in its mouth. Alot of the time when going from a curb to a snaffle the horse will be dull and unresponsive.

Again, this horse sounds like the complete opposite of what you want. Im curious as to why you even looked at it in the first place.
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    11-05-2012, 10:55 PM
  #17
Started
The problem with spur broke horses that i've seen is that the spur contact does the opposite than the traditional use .I've never ridden a spur broke horse but I think I'd find it confusing.From what i've been told, The spurs rate speed on these horses more contact the slower.I have seen these horses go in HUS riding in snaffle to a WP in curb,bitting isn't so much the issue here. Trouble i've seen riders have is trying to teach these horses to move out & be more forward in their movement.That in itself could prove problematic for OP trying to learn do H/J on that horse,if he is indeed solely spur broke.
     
    11-05-2012, 10:58 PM
  #18
Green Broke
Quote:
Originally Posted by paintedpastures    
The problem with spur broke horses that i've seen is that the spur contact does the opposite than the traditional use .I've never ridden a spur broke horse but I think I'd find it confusing.From what i've been told, The spurs rate speed on these horses more contact the slower.I have seen these horses go in HUS riding in snaffle to a WP in curb,bitting isn't so much the issue here. Trouble i've seen riders have is trying to teach these horses to move out & be more forward in their movement.That in itself could prove problematic for OP trying to learn do H/J on that horse,if he is indeed solely spur broke.
The way she described the horse I don't think he is spur broke.

I agree with you, spur broke horses always seem to have more suck back than forward. Since the rider is usually always riding the "brake"
     
    11-05-2012, 11:09 PM
  #19
Banned
Quote:
Originally Posted by paintedpastures    
The problem with spur broke horses that i've seen is that the spur contact does the opposite than the traditional use .I've never ridden a spur broke horse but I think I'd find it confusing.From what i've been told, The spurs rate speed on these horses more contact the slower.I have seen these horses go in HUS riding in snaffle to a WP in curb,bitting isn't so much the issue here. Trouble i've seen riders have is trying to teach these horses to move out & be more forward in their movement.That in itself could prove problematic for OP trying to learn do H/J on that horse,if he is indeed solely spur broke.
It's just heels down, weight in the stirrups, spurs on to create the forward oomph with the weight down sloooooow.....it's actually really hard to get a really nice slow lope, for reining that is....otherwise it would be considered a gallop in WP just kidding! But it's not as slow as a WP lope...
So it's actually the same cues, just used at the same time, the spurs are on to pick the horse up and collect him too....so lots going on all at once!!!!
     
    11-05-2012, 11:26 PM
  #20
Started
Spur stop controversy {Taken from wikipedia}
A new fad, seen in nearly all breeds, requires a horse to perform with an extremely loose, draped rein at all times. Western pleasure horses have always traveled on a fairly loose rein, but in recent years the visible "drape" in the rein has become exaggerated.[4] However, it requires time, good riding ability, and careful training to correctly teach a horse "self carriage," particularly to slow or stop by responding to only a rider's use of seat position (and sometimes voice) without tightening the reins.[5] Thus, an alternative method of training to slow a horse down without the use of the reins gave rise to a new, highly controversial, technique known as the "spur stop," an unconventional method used by some trainers to train horses to slow down and stop when spur pressure is applied.
Because spur, heel or leg pressure is generally used to ask a horse to go faster, this technique is sometimes referred to by its critics as "riding the brake" and is frowned upon by several major western pleasure sanctioning organizations since at least 2003, when AQHA put out a series of videos on correct and incorrect style and way of going for western pleasure horses, showing a "hit list" of undesirable traits not to be rewarded in the show ring, with the spur stop leading the list.[6]
This controversy in Western Pleasure circles resembles the debate over Rollkur in the field of dressage, particularly over the question of whether the practice constitutes animal abuse.
Experts differ on the validity of the spur stop. As stated by trainer Bob Avila: "the spur stop is “the worst thing ever invented. If I were to get a horse in for training that had a spur stop on him, I could do one event on him, period: Western pleasure.” Taking the opposing view, Mark Sheridan, an AQHA judge and trainer, has said: "You should not have any problems with the spur stop, and the transition to whatever events you decide to do with [the horse]. Personally, I put a spur stop on just the stop and back, on my western riders."
A less extreme method is referred to as putting "buttons" on the horse. A "button" is simply a leg or spur position that is trained by operant conditioning that tells the horse to travel at a particular gait or speed. These are often highly customized to an individual horse and rider team. While less extreme than the spur stop, such techniques still take the horse away from traditional responses to the riding aids of seat, hands, weight and voice, which can also lead to an excessively artificial way of going by the animal.
     

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